The Time has come for a Community Patch

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Narcissistic Black
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Wed 13 Dec 2017 09:35

There is nothing wrong with adding or rerolling units, its just people get excited and make these monstrosities of OP doom because in my opinion they don't like working on a unit that no one will use as it takes a good amount of effort to change up a unit. But it's totally possible to reroll or add a new unit with the idea to support a existing deck and not be OP.

EDIT:

I don't even know how anyone can say no new units or rerolls are needed as pitiful the Blue Dragons is as a coalition let alone national Japanese and South Korea are and don't be me started in China's wasted potential. There is definitely gaps and holes missing when it comes all 5 of the nations added (North Korea,South Korea,Anzac,China and Japan) and rerolling units and adding a couple of units here and there as long as they're supportive to that nations play style. People just need to learn not to go crazy trying to make godly units.




The 3 main issues I've seen modders run into is that the mod doesn't auto update (as in you click to start the mod and it checks the systems to see if it's the most recent version), The lack of public servers supporting the mod (because of Eugen's policy only private and unoffical hosted servers can run mods), and the masses are incredibly lazy when it comes to modding unless you can just click subscribe and be done with it, that stops like half the people who seemed interested in the first place right there. In my opinion unless this can be overcome it's not likely going to happen on a wide scale.
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby urogard » Wed 13 Dec 2017 16:44

Narcissistic Black wrote:TI don't even know how anyone can say no new units or rerolls are needed as pitiful the Blue Dragons is as a coalition let alone national Japanese and South Korea are and don't be me started in China's wasted potential. There is definitely gaps and holes missing when it comes all 5 of the nations added (North Korea,South Korea,Anzac,China and Japan) and rerolling units and adding a couple of units here and there as long as they're supportive to that nations play style. People just need to learn not to go crazy trying to make godly units.

I think most people would agree that those 5 countries could be the exception to the rerolling units.

But even then, most of the problems the dragons have can be fixed with stat tweaks which is the least.
- Price tweaks on infantries
- Koksan 10 sec aimtime
- 2 cards of K1A1/ZTZ-85-III
- 10 pts price buff on Su-27SK +1 veterancy grade
- 10-15 pts price buff on NK MiG-29

To name just a handful of tweaks that would address the most dire problems in their lineup.
And it can be achieved without making any rerolls (units remaining within their class without introducing significant changes).

And since people will NOT learn not to go crazy, you simply have to have the baseline, that for any patch balance tweaks (price, stats, availability, veterancy) should be first and foremost. Afterwards, only in exceptional circumstances should a re-roll or addition of any unit for any nation (e.g.: Abrams for ANZAC) be considered if a tweak is incapable of providing the relief it should provide.

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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Wed 13 Dec 2017 18:32

urogard wrote:
Narcissistic Black wrote:TI don't even know how anyone can say no new units or rerolls are needed as pitiful the Blue Dragons is as a coalition let alone national Japanese and South Korea are and don't be me started in China's wasted potential. There is definitely gaps and holes missing when it comes all 5 of the nations added (North Korea,South Korea,Anzac,China and Japan) and rerolling units and adding a couple of units here and there as long as they're supportive to that nations play style. People just need to learn not to go crazy trying to make godly units.

I think most people would agree that those 5 countries could be the exception to the rerolling units.

But even then, most of the problems the dragons have can be fixed with stat tweaks which is the least.
- Price tweaks on infantries
- Koksan 10 sec aimtime
- 2 cards of K1A1/ZTZ-85-III
- 10 pts price buff on Su-27SK +1 veterancy grade
- 10-15 pts price buff on NK MiG-29

To name just a handful of tweaks that would address the most dire problems in their lineup.
And it can be achieved without making any rerolls (units remaining within their class without introducing significant changes).

And since people will NOT learn not to go crazy, you simply have to have the baseline, that for any patch balance tweaks (price, stats, availability, veterancy) should be first and foremost. Afterwards, only in exceptional circumstances should a re-roll or addition of any unit for any nation (e.g.: Abrams for ANZAC) be considered if a tweak is incapable of providing the relief it should provide.



It's not hard to not go crazy when making a unit but the real issues are who is going to decide whats goes into such a patch? because I can tell you now if its like 5 people it might as well be a mod in the modding part of the forums. Because wouldn't really be a community patch if the whole community wasn't apart of said votes or suggestions. But with that said lets be clear a lot about wargame could be redone. So it needs to be clarified now what does this patch really want to do... Does it wish to seek and sort out the imbalances that the last 2 DLC's added into the game to return order to what people though was balanced before? or does it wish to bring in a new age of balance where countries can live up to their potentials by sculpting wargame to how the community see's fit?

Personally I can't see how you people can look at vanilla and not see problems with all kinds of things.. lack of this,wrong price of that,useless unit that no one uses here,loadout change needed here..

Also Abrams is OOTF for aussies, so that would be BIAS.. would you? (indeed Eugen has already added a couple of OOTF units but if we start during that at what end does that end also those could be removed if need be)
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby urogard » Wed 13 Dec 2017 20:16

Narcissistic Black wrote:It's not hard to not go crazy when making a unit but the real issues are who is going to decide whats goes into such a patch? because I can tell you now if its like 5 people it might as well be a mod in the modding part of the forums. Because wouldn't really be a community patch if the whole community wasn't apart of said votes or suggestions.

#1 It actually is extremely hard
#2 The "community" will never agree on anything BUT the most basic changes
#3 That's why any re-rolls short of cancer-removal (LRAAMs) are not going to find wide acceptance
#4 As long as everyone is going to be using eugen servers, nobody is going to be installing any patches
#5 Due to #2/#4 only the most basic and non-controversial changes have a chance of getting picked up, so forget about re-rolls or unit deletions because Eugen doesn't delete units, ever.

Narcissistic Black wrote:But with that said lets be clear a lot about wargame could be redone. So it needs to be clarified now what does this patch really want to do...

To attempt to improve balance by doing the bare minimum of changes to the least number of units.
Anything else will not be a viable balance patch but a mod, which as you say, will end up being used by like 5 people until they revert back to vanilla.

Narcissistic Black wrote:Personally I can't see how you people can look at vanilla and not see problems with all kinds of things.. lack of this,wrong price of that,useless unit that no one uses here,loadout change needed here..

Find me one person who says that vanilla isn't problematic.
I've created at least 3-4 threads highlighting how different classes of units have either availabilities or pricings all over the place.
Everyone and their mother keeps repeating how DLC nations have units with absurd pricings.

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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Thu 14 Dec 2017 03:34

urogard wrote:#1 It actually is extremely hard
#2 The "community" will never agree on anything BUT the most basic changes
#3 That's why any re-rolls short of cancer-removal (LRAAMs) are not going to find wide acceptance
#4 As long as everyone is going to be using eugen servers, nobody is going to be installing any patches
#5 Due to #2/#4 only the most basic and non-controversial changes have a chance of getting picked up, so forget about re-rolls or unit deletions because Eugen doesn't delete units, ever.



1. It's literally not hard to think of a unit reroll that wouldn't be OP.
2. Probably and even then that's pushing it, there is always going to be that guy
3. Pretty sure besides the heavy offenders ATACMS,PATRIOT and NEVA M1T people are going to try and get their hated units on that list.
4. I agree.
5. If no one is going to use public servers as you said in #4 then why would this patch become wide spread?



To attempt to improve balance by doing the bare minimum of changes to the least number of units.
Anything else will not be a viable balance patch but a mod, which as you say, will end up being used by like 5 people until they revert back to vanilla.


Sounds a lot like you're doing damage control. Anything listed as cancer issue will be nerfed.


Find me one person who says that vanilla isn't problematic.
I've created at least 3-4 threads highlighting how different classes of units have either availabilities or pricings all over the place.
Everyone and their mother keeps repeating how DLC nations have units with absurd pricings.



Well if everyone thinks vanilla is problematic prepare for a cluster storm.


the main issue is who is going to decide what is acceptable as a change? do at least 10 people need to vote on it?
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby urogard » Thu 14 Dec 2017 05:37

Narcissistic Black wrote:the main issue is who is going to decide what is acceptable as a change? do at least 10 people need to vote on it?

I was pointing out the absurdity of your train of thought as to the why and what of a potential patch.

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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Thu 14 Dec 2017 05:56

urogard wrote:
Narcissistic Black wrote:the main issue is who is going to decide what is acceptable as a change? do at least 10 people need to vote on it?

I was pointing out the absurdity of your train of thought as to the why and what of a potential patch.


Then I shall take my leave, good luck.
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby Yakhont » Thu 14 Dec 2017 08:05

The idea of a community patch is the long term players that have interest in the game and have extensive experience with it get together and decide on changes.

Ideally I think, is to get all the competitive players in a room and ask them for a list of changes, that would give the changes a big amount of legitimacy, and it doesnt make practical sense for members of the forum to be voting on any changes.
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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby James-Bond » Sat 16 Dec 2017 02:32

Yakhont wrote:The idea of a community patch is the long term players that have interest in the game and have extensive experience with it get together and decide on changes.

Ideally I think, is to get all the competitive players in a room and ask them for a list of changes, that would give the changes a big amount of legitimacy, and it doesnt make practical sense for members of the forum to be voting on any changes.

+1

completely agree, competitive players should be able to impact in changes, as they understand the game inside out.
& by having many of them to discuss it could eliminate bias towards units or strategies.

on average, casual players don't understand why certain units are balanced.

I'm in the casual player category & I probably has a Bias towards buffing Eastern Bloc
Spoiler : as I would say stuff like; (doesn't means it should be implemented) :
E-Ger: New tank around 140pts, 2 card MiG-29, Konkurs-M
Poland: kommandos better AT weapon, 2 Card MiG-29, mortar or better arty
CZ: a MiG-29 fighter.


example can't public agree on anything even same units
"Su-27pu is trash" / "PU OP LAZER MISSILES!!11"

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Re: The Time has come for a Community Patch

Postby chykka » Mon 18 Dec 2017 00:07

Would a napalm launcher like the Saperzy be OP on zwiadowcy? Than saperzy would be kinda null anyway, I'm half trolling.
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