Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

User avatar
Stillehavet
Sergeant
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu 25 Feb 2016 13:52
Contact:

Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby Stillehavet » Thu 7 Dec 2017 15:27

Type 69 is the copied one of RPG-7. in W:RD, North Korea and China's infantries are using this series.

Type 69 : Zhànshì '75, Lù zhànduǐ '75
Type 69-I : Liè Rén, Zhànshì '85
Type 69-III : Jeogockdae '90, Yuckjeondae '90

In this game, basic Type 69 is same as RPG-7(AP 14), Type 69-I has received 20 AP, which is similar as LRAC F1(can penetrate RHA 400mm) & AT4(can penetrate RHA 420mm), and Type 69-III received AP 23, similar as APILAS, which can penetrate >720mm.

Then, see the Chinese wikipedia's Type 69 document. as we know, Eugen get many informations from Wikipedia, well.

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/69%E5%BC%8F%E7%81%AB%E7%AE%AD%E7%AD%92
https://web.archive.org/web/20070610123905/http://www.sinodefence.com/army/small_arms/type69rpg.asp
※From the left to right, [Name] [Charge] [Weight] [Caliber] [Effective Range] [Penetration(RHA)] [Anti-Personal radious]

From this page, Type 69 can penetrate RHA 110mm(65˚), Type 69-I can penetrate 150mm(65˚), and Type 69-III can penetrate 180mm(65˚).

With ignoring the normalization, 1/cos 65˚ ≒ 2.366, so the penetration value to 90˚ RHA can be transferred each 260 / 355 / 426 mm.

In addition, M20A1 Super Bazooka can penetrate 11"(≒280mm) RHA, but this one has received AP 10, while Type 69 (~260mm RHA) has received AP14.

I don't wanna add more comment about this. :3



*typo fixed
Last edited by Stillehavet on Thu 7 Dec 2017 15:42, edited 4 times in total.
I'm a Scandinavia player, and my game nickname is #SWE JAS-39 Gripen.
Jag älskar Gripen!

User avatar
Grabbed_by_the_Spets
General
Posts: 6368
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2012 11:40
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby Grabbed_by_the_Spets » Thu 7 Dec 2017 15:34

110mm Seems very, anemic, the base RPG has 270mm hell, the RPG-2 has 180mm penetration.

110mm is about the same performance of WW2 Anti-tank munitions of similar size.

Also, the super bazooka has been known to be under-modeled in Red Dragon.
Image

User avatar
another505
More than 10 000 messages. Soldier you are the leader of all armies!
Posts: 12999
Joined: Sun 21 Jul 2013 05:18
Location: Hiatus
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby another505 » Thu 7 Dec 2017 15:55

the day RPK, type 81, and pkm are as good as Minimi and Mg3 then maybe
Image
Of Salt

User avatar
keldon
Major
Posts: 1907
Joined: Tue 16 Sep 2014 16:38
Location: Liebe Grüße aus Stuttgart
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby keldon » Thu 7 Dec 2017 18:55

Few things.

- There are still inconsistencies among the AP distribution of RPGs, even after the last rather large revision.
- Don't use Wiki or the old Sinodefence website.
- numbers like 150mm @65° need to be recalculated into RHA at 0°, tool to do so: https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor- ... &angle_2=0
- the said thickness are the targetplate the grenade needs to clear, wheter they pen more after that are not recorded, but generally shouldn't be much, even if they do pen more.
- Type-III grenade uses parts of PF-89, which include the new explosive and layout of the grenade. PF-89 production typ pens 630mm
- Did i mention inconsistencies already?
- And really, RD too OP or what?
Image
> Sources for tuning Red Dragons --- Sources for tuning Blue Dragons <
亲们!大国梦哦!
小钱钱,真心甜,鼓钱包,放腰间,大国梦,早日圆 。啷个哩个啷♪

urogard
Colonel
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun 4 May 2014 13:31
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby urogard » Thu 7 Dec 2017 20:24

keldon wrote:- And really, RD too OP or what?

This would have been my entire response.

Like honestly, out of all balance issues and RD roster overall, is performance of that RPG line something that needs to get looked at in any way?

User avatar
Stillehavet
Sergeant
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu 25 Feb 2016 13:52
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby Stillehavet » Fri 8 Dec 2017 08:21

I never said any of RD's unit is op, and also never mentioned that RD has to be nerfed. But I don't think RD has to be supported by exaggerated Type 69 series RPG. Making 426mm Pen's AP same as 720mm's AP can't be justified just only for balance...

IDK why I have to suggest this, well, let's think about the units will be influenced. Skip the '75 INFs which are using basic Type 69.

Just give Type 69-III to Zhànshì '85(to '90 and maybe with Type 81?) and Liè Rén instead of 69-I. Then with the correction of AP Value, they would get 1 AP nerf, but this is still same as LRAC F1's AP.

And about the NK infs using 69-III, we can give them Soviet's LAW. They already received T-72, T-90, BMP-1, Mi-24 with this alternative timeline, just adding some LAW may not be a problem.



keldon wrote:- Don't use Wiki or the old Sinodefence website.

keldon, it seems you really hate those references, so I bring these. Hope these ones are acceptable for you :3

http://www.360doc.com/content/15/1101/00/19670888_509779691.shtml wrote:作为反坦克火箭最重要的指标,69式配用的超口径反坦克火箭弹破甲深度达到了110mm/65°,可以击穿T-62坦克的正面装甲。但这种基本型弹也存在着因战斗部炸药对压电引信元件的腐蚀,导致储存一段时间后瞎火率偏高的问题,70年代通过使用酸值较低的炸药解决。

随着性能比T-62更加先进的T-72批量换装远东苏军,基本型弹的穿深又不够了。在40火几十年的发展中,对弹的改进一直是重中之重。1983年对战斗部装药进行改进设计,在保持原弹重情况下使破甲威力提高到150mm/65°,即40-I型弹。由于射表不变,定型后即投入了生产,取代了原型弹。

不过在披挂反应装甲的T-72改进型出现之后,I型弹的威力也嫌不够用了。新的改进型弹,其弹径加大到94mm,弹质量加大到2.97kg,威力可达180mm/65°。但是由于弹头增重,速度降低,直射距离降至200m。而且射表也需要修正,所以定型后只小批量生产,这就是40-II型弹。

http://www.armystar.com/junshilishi/201511/30997_2.html wrote:"其主要装备的69-3型火箭弹,穿深可达180毫米/65度,相较56式有较大提升。"

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2016-12-30/doc-ifxzczff3454743.shtml wrote:该弹直射距离增加到了300米,最大速度300米/秒,垂直破甲380毫米。

https://kknews.cc/military/92kqjx5.html wrote:其次於1983年對戰鬥部裝藥進行改進設計,在保持原彈重情況下使破甲威力提高到150mm/65°,即40-I型彈。由於射表不變,定型後即投入了生產,取代了原型彈。同時還進行大幅度提高威力的新彈設計。

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg2001.pdf wrote:Type 84 (85mm HEAT) 350m/180mm at 65°

I hope to find the references, but I can't find any reference that telling 69-III can penetrate 720mm.

Please suggest your ground for your argument. This is common sense, Buddy?



keldon wrote:- numbers like 150mm @65° need to be recalculated into RHA at 0°, tool to do so: https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor- ... &angle_2=0
- the said thickness are the targetplate the grenade needs to clear, wheter they pen more after that are not recorded, but generally shouldn't be much, even if they do pen more.

Plus, please read the whole topic before answer. I've already written about the angle effect.
Stillehavet wrote:With ignoring the normalization, 1/cos 65˚ ≒ 2.366, so the penetration value to 90˚ RHA can be transferred each 260 / 355 / 426 mm.

And whether following any side, 180mm@65° is almost same as 426mm, NOT 630mm OR 720mm!

Type 69-III is 69-III, and PF-89 is PF-89. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. The one can penetrate RHA 630mm is PF-89, NOT Type 69-III. DON'T GET AWAY FROM THE TOPIC.

Just think that your argument, that 69-III is using PF-89's component is right. Then can you said 69-III has to receive higher AP than PF-89? Does it prove your word?
I'm a Scandinavia player, and my game nickname is #SWE JAS-39 Gripen.
Jag älskar Gripen!

urogard
Colonel
Posts: 2938
Joined: Sun 4 May 2014 13:31
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby urogard » Fri 8 Dec 2017 12:07

Stillehavet wrote:I never said any of RD's unit is op, and also never mentioned that RD has to be nerfed. But I don't think RD has to be supported by exaggerated Type 69 series RPG.

Translation:
"I never mentioned RD has to be nerfed, but their RPG line needs to get nerfed"

When not making a comprehensive list of changes to RD roster, creating new threads about singular issues rather than posting it in the MAIN RD thread is pointless because it makes sure that new thread and its ideas will get lost.

User avatar
Stillehavet
Sergeant
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu 25 Feb 2016 13:52
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby Stillehavet » Fri 8 Dec 2017 14:14

urogard wrote:
Stillehavet wrote:I never said any of RD's unit is op, and also never mentioned that RD has to be nerfed. But I don't think RD has to be supported by exaggerated Type 69 series RPG.

Translation:
"I never mentioned RD has to be nerfed, but their RPG line needs to get nerfed"

When not making a comprehensive list of changes to RD roster, creating new threads about singular issues rather than posting it in the MAIN RD thread is pointless because it makes sure that new thread and its ideas will get lost.

Then without AP -1, and change the name of 69-I to 69-III. NK Inf's receive Russian LAW instead of 69-III(Without price increase). Then there's no loss in RD. Right?

I don't care about the whole RD, just interested in Type 69 series RPG. So let's get back to the topic: Type 69-III(426mm) should be stronger than PF-89(630mm)?
I'm a Scandinavia player, and my game nickname is #SWE JAS-39 Gripen.
Jag älskar Gripen!

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby Markenzwieback » Fri 8 Dec 2017 14:15

Stillehavet wrote:I don't care about the whole RD, just interested in Type 69 series RPG.

Than this should be in the off-topic section.
Image

User avatar
zeeyoo
Corporal
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon 11 Mar 2013 10:15
Contact:

Re: Type 69 RPG series are overmodeled

Postby zeeyoo » Fri 8 Dec 2017 14:39

Stillehavet wrote:Just give Type 69-III to Zhànshì '85(to '90 and maybe with Type 81?) and Liè Rén instead of 69-I. Then with the correction of AP Value, they would get 1 AP nerf, but this is still same as LRAC F1's AP.

And about the NK infs using 69-III, we can give them Soviet's LAW. They already received T-72, T-90, BMP-1, Mi-24 with this alternative timeline, just adding some LAW may not be a problem.


urogard wrote:
Stillehavet wrote:I never said any of RD's unit is op, and also never mentioned that RD has to be nerfed. But I don't think RD has to be supported by exaggerated Type 69 series RPG.

Translation:
"I never mentioned RD has to be nerfed, but their RPG line needs to get nerfed"

When not making a comprehensive list of changes to RD roster, creating new threads about singular issues rather than posting it in the MAIN RD thread is pointless because it makes sure that new thread and its ideas will get lost.


Translation : "RD is weak faction, so whatever you said about the compensation the components in RD shouldn't have any nerf even though it based lots on exaggeration."

Please don't try to get away from topic. OR you can link this topic to the Main thread. Topics too long also make comprehensive itself enough.

Markenzwieback wrote:
Stillehavet wrote:I don't care about the whole RD, just interested in Type 69 series RPG.

Than this should be in the off-topic section.


Does he said about real Type 69 series? It seems on the W:RD's Type 69 series.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 16 guests