MiG-29 Loadouts

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby urogard » Thu 28 Dec 2017 21:59

XanderTuron wrote:
Razzmann wrote:How about another tank in the 60-90 points price range? Surely Red Dragons do not have enough of those yet!


Pure genius.

I think what NK really needs is a 90's Militia squad

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby another505 » Fri 29 Dec 2017 11:19

Markenzwieback wrote:I know my way around IRST and usage for A2A missiles, just messing with you (after you used RWR). :P

And while you are correct that the tracking with IRST isn't located by the tracked aircraft, missile firing will be by defensive systems. At least the more modern (1980s+) ones. Hence the accuracy bonus is questionable, because you can employ the same countermeassures as with regularly fired heat-seeking A2A missiles.

In practice, the MiG-29 IRST was pretty shit (at least on export versions). To the point where the West-German air force didn't make use of it when flying aggressor display for NATO countries.


I dont really care about the accuracy buff for being IRST, but the stealth buff would jsut make it a bit interesting despite not really realistic. Is just something I would prefer to see if it can make the NK mig29 useful.
honestly, a 15 price buff and avail/vet change would make it usable i think.
Maybe the IR R_27 get range or accuracy buff (not because IRST, but just ingame performance doesnt make sense in relation to other missiles) . Its waaay too low in accuracy for such little range increase.
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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Markenzwieback » Fri 29 Dec 2017 11:51

another505 wrote:NK MiG29

Couldn't agree more that the plane should be buffed.

Four R-60M, two R-27T and R-27T range to 5425 meters. Overall price of the plane down to 100 points. Now it can easily compare to other ASFs of its price range.
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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Steamfunk » Fri 29 Dec 2017 22:05

And while you are correct that the tracking with IRST isn't located by the tracked aircraft, missile firing will be by defensive systems. At least the more modern (1980s+) ones. Hence the accuracy bonus is questionable, because you can employ the same countermeassures as with regularly fired heat-seeking A2A missiles.


There are missile warning sensors that will detect the heat signature of a missile in-flight but most aircraft don't have them.

In practice, the MiG-29 IRST was pretty shit (at least on export versions). To the point where the West-German air force didn't make use of it when flying aggressor display for NATO countries.


It was very sophisticated for it's time, being able to track targets at wide angles with a direct link to the helmet mounted sight. The MiG-29 and Su-27 were designed to be highly maneouverable at all altitudes so it makes more sense to have this system.

Shit, even in 2017 IRSTs are kinda MEH compared to optronics within dedicated targeting pods. Especially Russian/Soviet ones who have been lagging behind Western optronics for decades.


Actually the USSR were the first to use IR tracking on aircraft like the MiG-23, there were no western equivalents at the time. Pods like Lantirn are for visual tracking and navigation alongside radar/INS.

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby chykka » Mon 1 Jan 2018 07:33

Mike wrote:
another505 wrote:Personally, I would like to see the NK Mig-29 with Medium stealth


And I stopped reading there. :lol:

muh low altitude flying in mountains xD
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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Steamfunk » Mon 1 Jan 2018 15:49

Just to clarify, the IRST on the MiG-23 and MiG-25PD is used in conjunction with the radar for ranging - the MiG-29 and Su-27 have a laser rangefinder and can operate without radar. The MiG-31 also has this capability, as noted by Overscan -

According to Valery Romanenko, who researched for Paul F Crickmore and interviewed ex MiG-31 pilot Mikhail Myagkiy, when flying anti SR-71 missions the IRST was the primary sensor. The radar would be set to combat frequencies but switched off, and the intercept would be flown using the IRST. The onboard computer could calculate range based on triangulation with "other onboard sensors".


So yes, the Foxhound is stealthy.

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Frencho » Thu 4 Jan 2018 04:23

Actually, the USAF introduced IRST pods before the USSR air branches.

Infrared Search and Track was invented by Texas Instruments, further developed by Hugues Aircraft and by 1967 Crusaders and F-4 Phantoms were equipped with IRST pods during the Vietnam War, half a decade before the Flogger B (MIG-23M) ever went into production in 1972!

The USAF and USN pilots feedback was that IRST was beyond useless and gave no operational benefit due to blurry image quality and low detection ranges. This lead the USA’s decision to leave IRST on the backburner for a couple of decades.

The reason the USSR was more active with IRST/FLIR integration on their airframes is simple. The USA has a knack for airframes with low RCS since the SR-71.

Soviet radars just could not keep up with the USA’s technological rupture on that field.
If soviet aircraft started to be equipped with FLIR, it is primarily because they are tasked to respond to a particular threat (defend a large airspace against stealthy USAF bombers or below radar intruders).
Moreover, when you have mediocre radars, you have to compensate elsewhere, aka infrared cameras.

Seeing the Soviet FLIR/IRST buildup coincides with the USA’s stealth buildup I correlate Soviet intel was good enough they knew more USA stealth aircraft were incoming, such as the F-117 Nighthawk, A-12 Avenger II, YF-22, YF-23 and B-2 Spirit (Hell they caught a guy trying to sell info on the ATB program to the soviets in the 1984).

So there you have it, it had nothing to do with pushing IRST to passively track and engage enemy bandits in a high intensity war.
Mostly because the operational value of those early systems is null, and radar did that job better against most western airframes anyways as the bulk were non-stealth.
Unless MIG-23/27/29 feel suicidal enough to get within 10 km or less of an F-15 or F-16 squadron just to get a final firing solution from the IRST+FLIR whilst the Eagles or Falcons snipe them Beyond Visual Range…

To sum up, integrated IRST presented no operational benefit in a conventional shooting war scenario, it was useful against stealth bombers harassing the vast Soviet airspace but that’s it.

Meanwhile optronics pods like Litening, Lantirn, Sniper, Legion, Damocles, Talios can do all the things integrated IRST can do, but much better, on any combat plane able to fusion the pod’s sensors feed.

Simply because most integrated IRST tech dates from the mid 80s to late 90s and haven’t been overhauled since then.

Then, semi-conductors, CMOS image sensors and camera tech overall saw an exponential growth in quality and capabilities by the late 2000s. This is mostly linked with the digital revolution on the consumer market: RED Cinema, GoPro, smartphone cameras, dash cams you name it.
So right now, IRST is back in force because the civilian market did a good job miniaturizing powerful optics and sensors with excellent semi-conductors and modules to process the raw data.

Hell, I call BS on all those nice brochures singing praise about the Su-27 and MIG-29 integrated IRSTs, because even the ones on the Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 are already considered obsolete by targeting and recon pod standards.
The advertised detection ranges on any integrated IRST+FLIR are as BS as my USB 3.1 Gen 2 port reaching 10 gigabit/s transfer speeds.

French feedback on Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) performance during Afghanistan, Libya and Mali was that integrated IRST had no tangible operational benefit and that pilots preferred the much more capable Damocles pod.

Actually, the entire Tranche 3 of Rafale ditched the OSF altogether because it was a wasteful redundancy seeing pilots used the Damocles pod anyways, and those little balls and bumps housing the IRST between the nose and the canopy actually hurt aerodynamic performance of the plane (they tested in on Mirage 2000s and they actually kept it from reliably going above Mach 2 at high altitudes).
French Air Froce and Navy have opted to rely on the new TALIOS pod for IRST on the Tranche 3 Rafales.

However, there will be a brand new integrated OSF for the upcoming F4 standard.

Spoiler : :
The F4 standard succeeds the F3R, the "R" is for "renovated", namely F1 and F2 overhauled to F3. The out of factory F3 Rafales is the F3-O4T tranche. "O" for "Obsolescence treatment".
The upgrades in the F3R standard concerns all production units (ex-F1, ex-F2, F3 and F3-O4T).

The out of factory F3 Rafales (with AESA but without OSF) are exclusive to the Tranche 3

Tranche 4 is the second batch of F3 Rafales but with AESA and new OSF-IT

To summarize the upgrades:
Tranche 1: Rafale F1> F3> F3R> F4.1
Tranche 2: Rafale F2> F3> F3R> F4.1
Tranche 3: Rafale F3> F3R> F4.1
Tranche 4A (before 2018): Rafale F3-O4T> F3R> F4.1
Tranche 4B (After 2021): Rafale F3R> F4.2
Tranche 5: Rafale F4.2

All older Rafales will be able to upgrade to F4.1 Standard but only brand new Rafale F3R (tranche 4) will be able to upgrade to F4.2 standard. Looks like 4.2 is some sort of soft MLU.

For the near future, the Talios pod will do IRST much better than both the archaic OSF and older Damocles pod and we will have to wait and see if the new OSF-IT can match or beat TALIOS once introduced.

Eurofighter Typhoon's pirate IRST is newer, first introduced in 2007, but can't track ground targets and ranges are not that much better than on the older French OSF. Typhoons use Litening or Damocles pods for recon and strike missions anyways.

Concerning the F-35, EOTS integrated IRST is already considered outdated because it’s based on an older Sniper module, and the bloody plane is not even operational yet! When it reaches operational status by the late 2020s, EOTS will be downright obsolete.

In my opinion it’s much easier and cheaper to just swap pods every decade than to overhaul integrated IRST, because the pace of image sensor quality and processing power is exponential these days.

Lastly, Russians have been getting all their critical optronic components from French companies (THALES/SAFRAN) since the late 90s, be it MBT thermal cameras or aircraft/helicopter IRSTs. Now due to sanctions the Russian defense industry can’t get French optronics anymore. Curious how European sanctions hit Russia in 2015 and all their lavish defense programs fall flat…

Still don’t believe me soviet era IRST and FLIR were terrible, here’s a visual aid:
MIG-23MF IRST feed
Rafale OSF feed
Rafale OSF Video

By the way I can't find any footage or captures from Soviet/Russian IRSTs besides the one I just linked, especially MIG-29's, feel free to share if you happen upon those.

P.S : No the Foxhound is not stealthy, it's a big ass plane with no RCS reduction features, huge reactors and exhaust and non-stealthy commlinks because stealthy commlinks are exclusive to the F-22 and F-35 so far. If turning off the radar is what you consider stealth, then every airplane can be stealthy.

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Steamfunk » Thu 4 Jan 2018 22:10

Actually, the USAF introduced IRST pods before the USSR air branches.


They could track targets but were slaved to the radar, not the missile. The F-106 had a better system that was retained until the late 80s or whenever it was retired from service. That aircraft armed with the AIM-4G was probably closest to the MiG-23.

Soviet radars just could not keep up with the USA’s technological rupture on that field.

If soviet aircraft started to be equipped with FLIR, it is primarily because they are tasked to respond to a particular threat (defend a large airspace against stealthy USAF bombers or below radar intruders).

Moreover, when you have mediocre radars, you have to compensate elsewhere, aka infrared cameras.


IRST and FLIR are different things - the MiG-29s IRST is basically a larger and more refined version of a missile seeker. Modern designs have progressed in terms of cooling and there are also imaging elements. FLIR is a term for 2D thermal imagers - there were similar devices called line scanners that pointed towards the earth. They were sometimes called 'pushbroom' sensors.

The Soviets adopted IRST mainly for doctrinal reasons as they had a large number of interceptors that would be operating against aircraft with powerful ECM equipment. The advantages of IR tracking over radar are accuracy (in terms of angular coverage), ECM resistance and the ability to 'sneak in' on the target. The earlier sensors were limited to about 20 degrees in elevation, then the R-73 came along..

I can't see any disadvantage to Soviet radars besides their lack of range in lookdown, but at that time only the F-4J and UK Phantoms had this capability. The MiG-31s radar was unique and the MiG-29 and Su-27 both had fairly advanced twist cassegrain designs with digital processing. The MiG-29M had an electronically steered slotted array which was the best they could do at the time.

Anyway, the point is what do we do with the North Korean MiG-29 which is the only Cat. A fighter that can legitimately be described as useless. One solution would be to buff the accuracy and/or range of the R-27T, but it would be just as easy to swap it with the SA missile. Either way I prefer the R-73 to the R-60.

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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby Sleksa » Fri 5 Jan 2018 14:20

Frencho wrote:Still don’t believe me soviet era IRST and FLIR were terrible, here’s a visual aid:
MIG-23MF IRST feed
Rafale OSF feed
Rafale OSF Video

By the way I can't find any footage or captures from Soviet/Russian IRSTs besides the one I just linked, especially MIG-29's, feel free to share if you happen upon those.


FYI the "MiG-23MF IRST feed" is a gunsight picture of a older mig-21that is frequently photoshopped to show "kill cams" of anything from tomcats to sr-71's

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/3659-3/Atlantique-Kill.jpg

Here's another "legit irst" picture of a mig-21's "irst" killing a F-15

http://s28.postimg.org/4kfbi61yl/mig21_r_60_rillsf_15.jpg

And a F-111

http://s9.postimg.org/ii1pt8a9r/159045815.jpg

The rest of your long post is a bunch of fiction as well
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Re: MiG-29 Loadouts

Postby HrcAk47 » Fri 5 Jan 2018 15:35

Oh wow, this thread just keeps on giving and giving.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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