Community Balance Patch

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Markenzwieback
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Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 22 Jan 2018 22:13

We discussed this topic quite a few times by now and some alright progression was made in the old thread.

What pushed me to revive this idea is the recent developments at a certain other Eugen game, which I am stupid enough to at least follow on the forums. Turns out the last patch entirely butchered certain parts of the game mechanics without informing the players. Basically, pulling a typical Eugen. It also highlighted to me, again, that we shouldn't sit around and wait for the final balance patch that may (and probably will) never come. Especially since we won't get any clear information from Eugen.

Our chances as a community would be much higher when we can properly discuss balancing and come up with a list of changes that we can agree on. Of course we should limit ourselves to the most important and basic balancing changes, which in itself would need a definition of what this would be. But I'd rather try to have civilized and goal-oriented discussion (urogard, your call :P) instead of waiting for Eugen to get moving. Everything is better than sitting around doing nothing.

My proposal would be as follows: We could set up a specific time frame (e.g. two or three weeks) during which we discuss a single nation (or a single coalition) and debate needed balancing changes and simple ways to provide needed buffs. Step by step we could move through the games content and should arrive at a more or less widely accepted list. With such a combined effort and a compiled list of changes as its outcome, it would be much easier to approach Eugen (or FLX?) and appeal for implementation. Be it as their final patch or as a steam beta option for easier player access. If this last step fails, we can still look into producing a mod and see how much publicity we can get.

Anyways, thoughts and opinions are appreciated. I would like to at least try to get the community balance patch project going in a serious manner.
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Tue 23 Jan 2018 00:18

Markenzwieback wrote:With such a combined effort and a compiled list of changes as its outcome, it would be much easier to approach Eugen (or FLX?) and appeal for implementation. Be it as their final patch or as a steam beta option for easier player access. If this last step fails, we can still look into producing a mod and see how much publicity we can get.

Even if we'd manage to put together and present anything tangible....
the problematic part is that EUG has kept a tight lid on whether or not they are even allowed from making any further balance patches.
[EUG]MadMat wrote:I summon thee

MM, are you legally prohibited from making balance patches to WG:RD?
A yes/no would be sufficient.

Since everyone pretty much expects that no matter the answer, no support from EUG will be forthcoming (even presenting them with a list means they have to invest manhours into the implementation), we have to assume this:
Markenzwieback wrote:If this last step fails, we can still look into producing a mod and see how much publicity we can get.

Which still brings us to the main problem ...
And assuming you could get the people running private servers to run the mod (i.e. we imagine you got to the point of getting the community to accept the patch) ...
Whenever EUG makes a steam sale, new players buy the game and if they don't install the mod (which they have no way of finding out about), they can't play on private servers, so they are cut off from the community ...

There's just so many problems with the spreading of the mod for which I don't see a reasonable solution due to the way WG has implemented internet play.

Markenzwieback wrote:My proposal would be as follows: We could set up a specific time frame (e.g. two or three weeks) during which we discuss a single nation (or a single coalition) and debate needed balancing changes and simple ways to provide needed buffs. Step by step we could move through the games content and should arrive at a more or less widely accepted list.

This will lead to a horrible mess. I can see almost a dozen problems right off the top of my mind with this approach.

Alternative suggestion:
Everyone can post 2-3 tweaks (buff/nerf) they would find most important for implementation (following the rules outlined below).
Summarize the most frequently mentioned tweaks and have them assessed by 3-6 GOOD players (don't start splitting hairs about how to define good, only retards will nominate themselves and only idiots would nominate someone who wouldn't be accepted by others).
Make a few more rounds of people giving 2-3 suggestions

To have even the tiniest chance of adoption by other players, and this is close to impossible with EUGEN/FOCUS having a monopoly on the infrastructure ... I've summarized a possible patch as follows:
urogard wrote:To attempt to improve balance by doing the bare minimum of changes to the least number of units.

That ultimately means:
- No re-rolls (changing one weapon type into another weapon type, or moving between tabs)
- No unit additions
- No unit deletions

Spoiler : "Reasonable (debatable) examples" :
B-5 changed to 1 card of 0/2/0/0/1
Pion price reduced from $100 to $70
NK MiG-29 9-12B price reduced from $120 to $110
Reducing Roland-Line salvo reload time


Spoiler : "Stupid (overreaching) examples" :
Adding USA Javelin
Removing SEAD from KA-52
Removing cluster arty


Once people adopt the mod en masse, you can put more effort into fixing more "problematic" parts of game balance, but right now, without a clear idea about the distribution system, any effort seems like a waste of time.

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Mike
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Mike » Tue 23 Jan 2018 18:27

urogard wrote:Removing SEAD from KA-52


Even though it would be a accurate change :P
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Tue 23 Jan 2018 20:32

Mike wrote:
urogard wrote:Removing SEAD from KA-52


Even though it would be a accurate change :P

One of the reasons I explicitly mentioned that rather than some other controversial item.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Zark » Wed 24 Jan 2018 18:34

Once people adopt the mod en masse, you can put more effort into fixing more "problematic" parts of game balance, but right now, without a clear idea about the distribution system, any effort seems like a waste of time.


This was something I attempted to suggest in the previous post on this matter. I feel that before anything is going to happen we need to decide on a method of sharing mods. http://rd.wargame.tools seems like a good candidate, if Buck Turgidson is amiable towards the idea. GitHub also comes to mind, though I don't know if it is the best fit.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby FrangibleCover » Wed 24 Jan 2018 20:33

All you're doing is working at the same problems FBM already provided the best possible solution to right before failing. This isn't even reinventing the wheel, this is reinventing the car crash.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Vobule » Wed 24 Jan 2018 20:38

Zark wrote:
Once people adopt the mod en masse, you can put more effort into fixing more "problematic" parts of game balance, but right now, without a clear idea about the distribution system, any effort seems like a waste of time.


Just use MediaFire like normal people.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby throwaway » Wed 24 Jan 2018 22:37

FrangibleCover wrote:All you're doing is working at the same problems FBM already provided the best possible solution to right before failing. This isn't even reinventing the wheel, this is reinventing the car crash.


FBM could have done distribution better. I wrote an auto-updater and Razz advertised the mod on reddit, but there was no advertisement on the steam forums and also very little engagement with the broader community when it comes to deciding on changes (due to the nature of the mod). Getting more people to have a stake in this, talking with 10v10 server hosts so there's mod servers up (if that's even possible), advertising on more than just reddit are all potential improvements on what we did for FBM.

But I agree with your general sentiment that this is pretty unlikely to work.

Vobule wrote:
Zark wrote:
Once people adopt the mod en masse, you can put more effort into fixing more "problematic" parts of game balance, but right now, without a clear idea about the distribution system, any effort seems like a waste of time.

Just use MediaFire like normal people.

You see a game titled "CBP 1v1". You ask people what's "CBP", they tell you it's the community patch you should download from mediafire, then extract some NDFs in your wargame directory, then do the reverse after the game so you can play in other lobbies, blabla. Big hurdle, you don't bother. I wrote an app that automatically loads a mod (or the base game) and then starts WRD for you. It also lets mod authors push mod updates to users. Still a bother since we've just replaced downloading a mod with downloading an app, but slightly easier so maybe it gets a few more people over the hurdle.

Now imagine if all the cosmetic mods were published using the mod auto-updater. Suddenly a decent chunk of the community is already familiar with the app. The updater itself could be modified to fetch a list of published mods and advertise the community patch. The hurdle to trying out the rebalance would be negligible in comparison to now.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Wed 24 Jan 2018 23:32

throwaway wrote:
Vobule wrote:Just use MediaFire like normal people.

You see a game titled "CBP 1v1". You ask people what's "CBP", they tell you it's the community patch you should download from mediafire, then extract some NDFs in your wargame directory, then do the reverse after the game so you can play in other lobbies, blabla. Big hurdle, you don't bother.

I think vobule, like most people, is unfamiliar with automatization of computer tasks.
To people who are used to scripting, even a few clicks is seen as tedious, but we probably also understand a lot better the fact that every click required exponentially decreases the chances of such a community build to find wide adoption.

throwaway wrote:Now imagine if all the cosmetic mods were published using the mod auto-updater. Suddenly a decent chunk of the community is already familiar with the app. The updater itself could be modified to fetch a list of published mods and advertise the community patch. The hurdle to trying out the rebalance would be negligible in comparison to now.

I concur, this is what I had in mind when writing my post.
I.e. if a distribution system for mods existed that would make proliferation of such a community effort possible

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby high_melanin » Thu 25 Jan 2018 12:04

USSR needs S-300 to balance the patriot.

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