Community Balance Patch

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Fodder » Mon 29 Jan 2018 18:16

FrangibleCover wrote:
I do know how F&F systems work in real life and that isn't it. Here's how you make Spike 'authentic' though:

-Grant Spike-MR/LR [F&F] tag
-Remove PstOhj 94, OOTF
-Remove Dorban LR, Spike didn't enter service with non Special Forces units until after 1991
-Remove Maglan, they're not recon SF in real life and they used MAPATS instead of Spike
-Change Spike NLOS to [MCLOS] because you have to manually fly the missile for some distance before locking it on to an enemy unit so the weapon it is most similar to in game is the TV Martel on the Jaguar GR.1A

Enjoy your authenticity.

+1

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 29 Jan 2018 19:30

Vobule wrote:Is this real ? Are you seriously thiking, writing, and sending this ? With Merkava transport, Nimrod, Zelda, Dorban (an ATGM team, not a problem in itself), Achzarit CV, Kurnass, AGL team, MAPATS, Spike NLOS ? The ONLY good tank missile in BLUFOR (LAHAT) ? Israel is very flavorful already and you just have no argument.
Btw see how half of the units I quoted are advantagous AT weapons, even Hamer MAPATS is a decent unit.

Merkava, Zelda, Kurnass and Nimrod are all units that are in need of a nerf/change. And I already posted my suggestions in that regard in the old thread (which you would have known if you had cared read it). Bringing this as an argument really doesn't help. And regarding the already "advantageous AT weapons", (almost) all of those are guided missile based. Meaning they can and are being effectively countered by parking and employing your tanks from within smoke clouds. A skilled player can already cancel out most of Israels standoff AT.

Vobule wrote:Spotting ranges against Very Good stealth:
Good optics: Forest: 1200m Town: 900m
Very Good optics: Forest: 1700m Town: 1275m
Conclusion: Very often, Maglans have still the advantage on you with your "nerf".
This is the confirmation you have no idea how the game works and how to lead or advise a proper community balance patch. You nailed your own coffin.

I can throw that last sentence right back at you: While the values you presented apply to recon units in idle mode, you missed out on firing noise. Whenever a unit shoots their weapons, they get a debuff to their stealth value due to it. This is the exact reason why Maglans are easily spotted when they fire the Spike right now and this would continue to the be the case in the future.

Vobule wrote:Btw don't talk again about flavor while Shayetet 13 in Nimrod can ruin any spawn very effectively.

Right, there is no counter against Nimrods in the entire game. No Tunguska-Ms, no Tors, no Prakas, no cheap ASFs with SRAAMs. Nothing. :roll:

Vobule wrote:Flavor again uh. I am starting to believe you are trolling and indeed not worthy of meaningful answers, as I suspected from the start. It was designed for something it can do, sure, but is mostly used another way: As a recon elite ATGM team with an MG. The access to cheap transports and two cards (nice balance there Eugen) only aggravates this. So the way they were originally designed does not matter, what matters is our plan what matters is how it is used.

But reducing their range, as I proposed during today's discussion, would remove their ability to be exactly that: A recon elite ATGM team. They would be a glorified recon FSK.

Vobule wrote:The last part of that sentence is so moronic I am only going to give you a strong advice: Drink a full bottle of vodka with your earholes and let it soak upside down for an hour or two.

Nice ad hominem, my dude.
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Mon 29 Jan 2018 21:01

I don't even know how I missed it but thanks to FrangibleCover I've come to the attention that Spike NLOS is also in the game (It's really beyond me how I missed it all this time I thought the HAFIZ and the PEREH were carrying MARPATS) so my suggestion on making spikes F&F please drop it as I totally see everyone's point on why it shouldn't happen.
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 29 Jan 2018 21:16

If you don't mind me saying, every nation would give its collective left nut to get a "glorified recon FSK".
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 29 Jan 2018 21:24

HrcAk47 wrote:If you don't mind me saying, every nation would give its collective left nut to get a "glorified recon FSK".

I am not saying it would to be a bad unit, quite on the contrary. But significantly shorter range removes their ability to act as long-range tank killers. And their rather low AP damages would only allow for one-hit kills on support vehicles and medium tanks.
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Vobule » Mon 29 Jan 2018 21:31

I see the vodka didn't soak in right, let me knock you out for good this time:

Ok so let me recap your brillant arguments:
- It's ok cuz smok'n'skill LOL, with that point I can justify literally anything, cuz smoke can counter it amirite
- I don't fucking know the game part 2, because those values takes noise 2 into account (same detection values as for other 2-men ATGM teams !). Nice double fail there, you should feel the shame fill your face by now. :oops:
- its ok cuz if enemy is dumb you can counter it, which contradicts argument one. Hmmmmmmm.
- "just" glorified recon FSK ? That's an INSANE unit, you should stop watching Tzahal TV before sleeping and go play twister on the highway or something.

10/10 would shill for Merkava transport again.

Please don't answer, it would only make it more embarassing. :)

Narcissistic Black wrote:I don't know the game yet talk about balance

So it's fine when an infantry elite recon team has F&F, but not a obvious and fragile vehicle. Yup.
Funny it took you so long to see it, I guess Spike NLOS was so out of scope for that game your brain censured it. :lol:

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby HrcAk47 » Mon 29 Jan 2018 21:31

Markenzwieback wrote:
HrcAk47 wrote:If you don't mind me saying, every nation would give its collective left nut to get a "glorified recon FSK".

I am not saying it would to be a bad unit, quite on the contrary. But significantly shorter range removes their ability to act as long-range tank killers. And their rather low AP damages would only allow for one-hit kills on support vehicles and medium tanks.


Isn't that plenty for a recon unit? Memeing a medium in one shot?

You also need to consider that the actual value of the ATGM rises with range squared then multiplied by 3.14 - they make their area of control much, muuuuuch greater with every range increment. Add the crazy speed combined with input delay (which is the part of all units), and you're creating a monster murderer unit that slays everything left and right - that comes for crazy cheap.

Consider if Israel really, really needs this. Because this thread is becoming uglier by the second. Oh, and Vobule is a very skilled modder, probably the best around, and knows what he's talking about. Not wise to antagonize him.
The SEAD never bothered me anyway.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 29 Jan 2018 22:06

Vobule wrote:- It's ok cuz smok'n'skill LOL, with that point I can justify literally anything, cuz smoke can counter it amirite

It is a valid tactic to place your tanks into a cloud of smoke to shield them from ATGMs and its pretty damn effective against ATGM carriers.

Vobule wrote:Recon numbers

If those numbers are correct, point taken. And whats your opinion on 10-man Maglan with 1575m Spike in the infantry tab? Or your opinion on how to (properly) balance Maglans? (Edit: And I mean beyond making them useless by giving them Dragon). Btw it would be lovely to hear your praised 10 changes tops for the RED DLC nations, which you proposed earlier in this thread.

HrcAk47 wrote:Isn't that plenty for a recon unit? Memeing a medium in one shot?

You would still need a sideshot for a one-hit kill against a medium. 8AV already survives a hit with the Spike.

HrcAk47 wrote:Oh, and Vobule is a very skilled modder, probably the best around, and knows what he's talking about. Not wise to antagonize him.

I honestly don't care if he feels antagonize or not. Almost the entire time he has been around in this thread, he either argued that something shouldn't be done without putting forward alternative solutions (still waiting on his 10 changes tops for RED DLC, see pg. 4) or throws around ad hominem/insults against different people.
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Vobule » Mon 29 Jan 2018 22:46

does not justify recon Spike team existence tho

See FBM changes, they did most of it right, with some details that are not needed.
I know they also did Maglans as the elite guys running around with Spike, and that's something I disagree with but it's a goood idea sure.

My stupid idea would be:
Maglans -> elite infantry with B300
Shayetet 13 -> elite recon with AKM, Stinger and silenced M14 (as they are known for being assassins)
Bedouis gets the M72 LAW instead of M14.
All done, flavor kept.

(From the top of my head: Spectre and jonas are way better (active) modders, I have nothing more than anyone. Just to make that clear.)

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby throwaway » Mon 29 Jan 2018 22:49

Markenzwieback wrote:
high_melanin wrote:and have very expensive transports.

A change in is department is more or less community consensus. They should at least get access to the BTR-D series.


It is not community consensus. There's a reason they got btr-90 and then lost it the next patch (how many change reversals like that can you think of?). Some think they should get ground transports, others think they should not, and of course some are fine with weak transports but not btr-90.

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