Community Balance Patch

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 29 Jan 2018 23:02

Vobule wrote:See FBM changes, they did most of it right, with some details that are not needed.
I know they also did Maglans as the elite guys running around with Spike, and that's something I disagree with but it's a goood idea sure.

Faustmann was basically infantry tab Maglan with Gorno range.

throwaway wrote:It is not community consensus. There's a reason they got btr-90 and then lost it the next patch (how many change reversals like that can you think of?). Some think they should get ground transports, others think they should not, and of course some are fine with weak transports but not btr-90.

Well, it always seemed like most people agreed that BTR-90/80A/80 were too much, but some form of ground transport was alright. And if my memory isn't playing me, many thought that Eugen overreacted taking away all their ground transports again; there even was a thread of a guy arguing for BTR-D with VDV attachment.

Ah well, whatever. IMO they should get BTR-D series and be done with it.
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Narcissistic Black
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Narcissistic Black » Mon 29 Jan 2018 23:08

Vobule wrote:
Narcissistic Black wrote:I don't know the game yet talk about balance

So it's fine when an infantry elite recon team has F&F, but not a obvious and fragile vehicle. Yup.
Funny it took you so long to see it, I guess Spike NLOS was so out of scope for that game your brain censured it. :lol:


HAFIZ and PEREH I wouldn't call them exactly fragile as they aren't 5HP and 0/0/0/0 armor so I wouldn't consider them fragile like those ATGM jeeps but just not resilient they could take some hits of arty and drive off and maybe some other weapons depending on whats firing. HAFIZ has 2/2/1/1 armor and PEREH has 6/3/1/1 armor.

MAGLAN
2450m range
21AP
Cant fire on the move (has to stop to aim if you move it starts the process over)
Can hide in buildings ( but with 5 seconds aim time you could really only be on the edge to get clean shots which would expose them to fire)
5 men
Speed 30km/h

VS


2975 Range
27AP
Can fire while moving because it has stabilizers (can move for 3 of the 5 seconds aiming and stop right at the last bit for max accuracy)
Can't hide in buildings
(HAFIZ has 2/2/1/1 armor, 10 Health) (speed 65km/h)
(PEREH has 6/3/1/1 armor, 10 Health) (Speed 55km/h)
Targetable by ATGMs


So yes there is a major difference in capability.



HrcAk47 wrote:Because this thread is becoming uglier by the second.


Yup.


Oh, and Vobule is a very skilled modder, probably the best around, and knows what he's talking about. Not wise to antagonize him.


I've never heard of him.

Vobule wrote:(From the top of my head: Spectre and jonas are way better (active) modders, I have nothing more than anyone. Just to make that clear.)


Jonas hasn't modded in forever.

That hurts, I thought I was pretty active.
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Vobule
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Vobule » Mon 29 Jan 2018 23:38

Faustmann was basically infantry tab Maglan with Gorno range.

I was talking about RED changes.
FBM also made them 1 card and fixed the missile speed IIRC. This is not the solution I prefer but it worked.

Maglans are not targetable by AP weapons, that's a very big advantage. They are also way more reactive, and as you said they can enter towns. Also they can kill infantry. I would take Maglans over Hafiz and Pereh any day.

Jonas hasn't modded in forever.

That hurts, I thought I was pretty active.

I'm retarded and out of date then, sorry.

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Tue 30 Jan 2018 00:01

Vobule wrote:I was talking about RED changes.
FBM also made them 1 card and fixed the missile speed IIRC. This is not the solution I prefer but it worked.

But I was referring to the second sentence about Maglans. :P
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Tue 30 Jan 2018 00:34

Markenzwieback wrote:Well, it always seemed like most people agreed that BTR-90/80A/80 were too much, but some form of ground transport was alright. And if my memory isn't playing me, many thought that Eugen overreacted taking away all their ground transports again; there even was a thread of a guy arguing for BTR-D with VDV attachment.

I can understand that for min-maxing 1v1 ranked, BTR-80A probably would have been the single most picked unit in every USSR deck, but outside of 1v1 I don't know of anyone who would have considered it problematic. BTR-60PB/70 couldn't have been a serious problem though no matter how you look at it.

BTR-90 was simply overkill since you basically had 13 of those in one card, which was too much quantity and an instant pick in every non-spec deck.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby high_melanin » Tue 30 Jan 2018 02:17

urogard wrote:I can understand that for min-maxing 1v1 ranked


So... what's the benchmark?

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Tue 30 Jan 2018 10:02

high_melanin wrote:
urogard wrote:I can understand that for min-maxing 1v1 ranked


So... what's the benchmark?

For infantry, the benchmark is other infantry.
For troop transports, the benchmark is other troop transports.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 30 Jan 2018 21:57

urogard wrote:
high_melanin wrote:
urogard wrote:I can understand that for min-maxing 1v1 ranked


So... what's the benchmark?

For infantry, the benchmark is other infantry.
For troop transports, the benchmark is other troop transports.


I think what he meant is that if 1v1 ranked isn't the mode that the Community Balance Patch should be balanced around, which mode should it be balanced around?
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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urogard
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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby urogard » Tue 30 Jan 2018 22:29

FrangibleCover wrote:
urogard wrote:
high_melanin wrote:So... what's the benchmark?

For infantry, the benchmark is other infantry.
For troop transports, the benchmark is other troop transports.


I think what he meant is that if 1v1 ranked isn't the mode that the Community Balance Patch should be balanced around, which mode should it be balanced around?

Mu

to indicate a question whose "answer" is to

    un-ask the question,
    indicate the question is fundamentally flawed, or
    reject the premise that a dualistic answer can or will be given


Spoiler : For those who still don't get it :
Your question "which mode should it be balanced around" is non-sensical because particular units are worthless for 1v1 whereas they are absolutely crucial for 3v3/4v4. Buffing/Nerfing them for either mode would carry significant risk of outright breaking them for the other.
Therefore the only benchmark for any unit should be other units of its class. The aim is therefore not to "consider" any mode in particular but to "fix" over- and under-performing units [and e.g. in the case of gornos 90' infantry/transport combos].

This is the same reason why EUG's advertised "policy" of considering "coalition balance" is utter load of crap. Its ultimate form we can now see implemented in SD. Decks which are absolutely disconnected from each other even in terms of income. Which makes any serious and hard balancing impossible and is nothing short of a trainwreck.

Incidentally this goal at the same time explains clearly and easily why any sort of re-rolls,removals or additions are out of scope.
It makes answering the question why Roland line needs increased availability or why the B-5 needs to be put at 2 per card exceedingly easy.
Any issue that is under debate, makes it out of scope for this patch (more or less 100% of vobule's and other people's posts concerning maglans are self-demonstrating for this purpose)


Unless of course you want to call one single type of unit vs one single type of different unit in the same class an actual game mode. In that case, balancing will be done based on that mode.

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Re: Community Balance Patch

Postby Razzmann » Tue 30 Jan 2018 23:05


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