Eugen Systems Forums

Hey, been trying to research rockets recently and though I'd ask you guys, I've noticed pretty much everyone can pull some obscure weapon/vehicle out of their bookmarks when the time is right, so I figure somebody should have what I'm looking for

I've been trying on and off the past few month to research American aerial ordinance for a War Thunder suggestion/general list of all relevant weapons. I'm good on the bombs, but the rockets are hard to find sources for. I'm hoping somebody out there can help.

Here's what I'm looking for:

1. Any information on the 6.5 inch RAM/ATAR rocket. Honestly I don't expect much info on this, it was developed in a hurry and dropped quickly. Explosive weight would be really nice. I do have numbers on penetration though.

2. The HEAT warhead for the 2.75" rocket, the M247, uses M72 LAW components in the warhead and has the same penetration. The Amy actually wrote down how much the LAW penetrates (still not sure why), but there's a slight issue. Penetration of the basic warhead is 200mm, however check the picture used to illustrate penetration (Ignore the 300mm bit, I screencaped the improved A2 manual). So is it 200mm of vertical armor or 200mm at some unknown slope?


3. How much armor with a Zuni rocket penetrate? Somehow this is even harder than the 2.75s, I only found the explosive weight in an EOD manual (5-18), and was forced to resort to looking for information on the fuses. That sort of worked (Page 12), I now know the Mk.32 shaped charge will penetrate 3 feet/914mm of concrete. Any way to convert to armor penetration?
http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/EOD%20Refresher%20USAF.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/463359.pdf

4. The HVAR 5" rocket apparently penetrates 3.5" armor at 70 degrees, the equivalent to 263mm vertically. (Thanks to RougeStarflyer on the WT forum for that one. Gave me the idea to search for fuse test as well). Any other sources for HEAT HVAR penetration?
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/035574.pdf
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php? ... t-warhead/

5. The Mk.5 2.75" warhead was used on early FFAR rockets and the Mk.20 Rockeye cluster bomb. Can anyone make any sense of THIS analysis of penetration at various angles? Several of the numbers aren't making any sense to me.


6. Any idea how much armor the Mk.77 grenade submunitions used in the M261http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-30,%20Rockets,%20Rocket%20Systems,%20Rocket%20Fuzes,%20Rocket%20Motors.pdf for the 2.75" rocket penetrates?

7. Any solid info on the Bullpup missile?

8. Any idea when exactly the 2.75" rockets went to the higher-velocity Hydra motors?

9. Anything weapons-wise you're looking for? Might have stumbled across it myself at some point.


As far as I know none of this stuff is actually secret/classified,

You might be able to find it in previous posts as well, this reminded me of a post way back about the surprising lethality of SNEB and CRV-7 with penetrator warheads (ie non-HEAT). Still looking for it but there's a ton of info hiding in here and the ALB forum that's worth digging for if you're having trouble on the web.

For a research example using the 6.5 inch RAM/ATAR rocket:

Look at Wikipedia. There's nothing immediately useful but often it's a gold mine of search terms and gives you a basic background on how the thing came to be, it's also great for family trees as you'll often find your information by reading up on a weapon system's predecessors, successors, or the procurement process it arose from.

1. Find info on websites to get an idea of what's out there and where to look:
-Some like these are usually pretty safe http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ram.html

2. Enter your search with pdf in the search terms or take the search right into Google books to see if the same info is popping up in books by reputable authors.
-The PDF tag is very helpful because it helps you weed out a lot of the jingoistic bullshit blogs and gets you straight to keyword hits in digitized historical documents.

3. Raid bibliographies from Wikipedia and the aforementioned decent websites.
-Find a book like this: [Magnificent Mavericks: Transition of the Naval Ordnance Test Station from Rocket Station to Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation Center, 1948-58 (History of the Navy at China Lake, California).]
-Search for it on Google books, find it, open it, search for your weapons system in it.
-Find only ATAR is referenced in that work
-The book mentions that the warhead defeated two back to back 12 inch steel armor plates (24") on p. 181, on P. 183 it is stated that there was no copper with which to form a liner for the cumulative charge so steel was used. The Thermador Electrical Manufacturing Company made the main production and PIP warheads.
https://books.google.com/books?id=SIG08L91YQcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Magnificent+Mavericks:+Transition+of+the+Naval+Ordnance+Test+Station+from+Rocket+Station+to+Research,+Development,+Test,+and+Evaluation+Center,+1948-58+(History+of+the+Navy+at+China+Lake,+California).+pdf&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI0fOc5_PYAhUR5GMKHbZ3AFcQ6AEIKTAB#v=onepage&q=ATAR&f=false

4. This was a good slightly vague result so let's hit the book's bibliography for something looking like an end user manual:
-Find this: NAVORD report 1243 NOTS 305 6.5-inch anti-tank aircraft rocket (ATAR) description and instructions for use. NOTS 26 Jul 1950, tack on pdf and search...
-Finds nothing, which is fine because we can look for a generic NAVORD report from the listed date 26 Jul1950
-Which still hasn't pinged on that NAVORD report 1243 but.... There's some DTIC PDFs! (Defense Technical Information Center = impartial, highly professional gvt defense analytical agency)

5. We come across the generic sounding [History of the Shaped Charge Effect] by the DTIC but it's only on ScribD or is it? Well we're not chumps who download PDFs from non gvt sites so we just put the title in + PDF and what do you know! We find the PDF In which we find more info!

The new warhead and fuze for the appropriately code-named "RAM" were, by necessity,
designed around materials and technologies immediately available to the remotely located
Ordnance Station. The warhead's case was a 6.625-inch diameter steel tube of the type used
in oil wells. The liner was a 60-degree included-angle, steel cone, sand-cast by the NOTS
foundry. The liner was used in an as-cast condition with very little machining required about
the base. The Composition-B explosive filler was cast at an on-base AEC-operated
explosive pilot plant facility. The newly designed fuze was an electric, point initiated, base
detonated system. Some of the fuze parts came directly from the shelves of the Navy
commissary. Hearing aid batteries (it was claimed NOTS took most the batteries off the
stores in the Western half of the United States) were used to charge a capacitor power supply.
The acceleration actuated arming-delay mechanism used a spring taken from commercial
clothespins and BB shot in a piece of copper tubing. The setback operated delay was literally
designed overnight, and its production was completed just prior to delivery of the first 1000
rounds to the battle area. Figure 39 is a sketch of the 6.5 ATAR.

Still not a round RHA number but it backs up a lot of stuff in the book that gave us the 24" RHA at 90 degrees in test conditions, making that a far more trustworthy source.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Zp4idDObzn

6. Give it one last shot, search for 6.5-inch anti-tank ATAR dtic PDF...
-Nothing more conclusive with this cursory search

So we're looking at a 152mm HEAT warhead that gets through ~550-600mm RHA, I'd say that's at the high but range of performance estimates but it's nothing irregular when you look at the warheads of similar calibers from the same era.

hansbroger wrote:You might be able to find it in previous posts as well, this reminded me of a post way back about the surprising lethality of SNEB and CRV-7 with penetrator warheads (ie non-HEAT). Still looking for it but there's a ton of info hiding in here and the ALB forum that's worth digging for if you're having trouble on the web.

For a research example using the 6.5 inch RAM/ATAR rocket:

Look at Wikipedia. There's nothing immediately useful but often it's a gold mine of search terms and gives you a basic background on how the thing came to be, it's also great for family trees as you'll often find your information by reading up on a weapon system's predecessors, successors, or the procurement process it arose from.

Already done.

1. Find info on websites to get an idea of what's out there and where to look:
-Some like these are usually pretty safe http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ram.html

Done that, nothing of value.

2. Enter your search with pdf in the search terms or take the search right into Google books to see if the same info is popping up in books by reputable authors.
-The PDF tag is very helpful because it helps you weed out a lot of the jingoistic bullshit blogs and gets you straight to keyword hits in digitized historical documents.

Thanks, had to remove "Forestal" and "enterpise" from search results for "Zuni" because the rockets cause fires on those.

3. Raid bibliographies from Wikipedia and the aforementioned decent websites.
-Find a book like this: [Magnificent Mavericks: Transition of the Naval Ordnance Test Station from Rocket Station to Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation Center, 1948-58 (History of the Navy at China Lake, California).]

Already have that book

4. This was a good slightly vague result so let's hit the book's bibliography for something looking like an end user manual:
-Find this: NAVORD report 1243 NOTS 305 6.5-inch anti-tank aircraft rocket (ATAR) description and instructions for use. NOTS 26 Jul 1950, tack on pdf and search...
-Finds nothing, which is fine because we can look for a generic NAVORD report from the listed date 26 Jul1950
-Which still hasn't pinged on that NAVORD report 1243 but.... There's some DTIC PDFs! (Defense Technical Information Center = impartial, highly professional gvt defense analytical agency)

Found some stuff on there but I'm pretty sure every source mentioned in a book is offline

5. We come across the generic sounding [History of the Shaped Charge Effect] by the DTIC but it's only on ScribD or is it? Well we're not chumps who download PDFs from non gvt sites so we just put the title in + PDF and what do you know! We find the PDF In which we find more info!

ScribD wants to charge me money for 60 year old Government manuals, I don't go near the site

6. Give it one last shot, search for 6.5-inch anti-tank ATAR dtic PDF...
-Nothing more conclusive with this cursory search

So we're looking at a 152mm HEAT warhead that gets through ~550-600mm RHA, I'd say that's at the high but range of performance estimates but it's nothing irregular when you look at the warheads of similar calibers from the same era.

Thanks, you've told me nothing I didn't already get from Magnificent Mavericks.


I've googled all this stuff, there just isn't anything for me to find. Do you have any sources you've found?

You can upload some crap on scribd and then download for free.

Mandolin wrote:

I've noticed pretty much everyone can pull some obscure weapon/vehicle out of their bookmarks when the time is right, so I figure somebody should have what I'm looking for

I've been trying on and off the past few month to research American aerial ordinance for a War Thunder suggestion/general list of all relevant weapons. I'm good on the bombs, but the rockets are hard to find sources for. I'm hoping somebody out there can help.

Already done.

[Thanks, had to remove "Forestal" and "enterpise" from search results for "Zuni" because the rockets cause fires on those.

Already have that book
Cool! I envy your library

Found some stuff on there but I'm pretty sure every source mentioned in a book is offline
That can be the case but it's still worth looking, a surprising amount of out of print books are digitized and the number of keyword searchable reports and manuals is staggering.

ScribD wants to charge me money for 60 year old Government manuals, I don't go near the site
Neither do I, hence the detailing of a workaround that gives you a free PDF directly from the DTIC, the previews are also a great source for titles,
authors and filing numbers that you can use to find that doc elsewhere so it's not a total lemon

Thanks, you've told me nothing I didn't already get from Magnificent Mavericks.
Yes because it looks sufficient enough if corroborated

I've googled all this stuff, there just isn't anything for me to find. Do you have any sources you've found?
Not at the moment, from your OP it looked like you could use some help as far as your methodology, I'm primarily a Diplomatic/non-military covert-ops/WARPAC focused historian so I don't do much with US ordinance other than trying to keep moderately literate, this just shows you what a given methodology can dig up for someone who had no idea what ATAR was in a few minutes

-Best, Hans.

Necroing because I've got some of the answers

Mandolin wrote:1. Any information on the 6.5 inch RAM/ATAR rocket. Honestly I don't expect much info on this, it was developed in a hurry and dropped quickly. Explosive weight would be really nice. I do have numbers on penetration though.

Per OP 1415, the RAM (properly the Mk1/Mk2 ATAR has 19.6lb Comp B
http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/OP%201415,% ... mblies.pdf

2. The HEAT warhead for the 2.75" rocket, the M247, uses M72 LAW components in the warhead and has the same penetration. The Amy actually wrote down how much the LAW penetrates (still not sure why), but there's a slight issue. Penetration of the basic warhead is 200mm, however check the picture used to illustrate penetration (Ignore the 300mm bit, I screencaped the improved A2 manual). So is it 200mm of vertical armor or 200mm at some unknown slope?

Spoiler : :

The M247 HEDP is a 1973 rocket that. The 300mm pen M72A2 came out that same year, so it is reasonable to assume it uses A2 bit and does ~300mm pen. Otherwise you'd just stick with Mk.5 components

http://castpics.net/pdfs/m/AR/tm_9-1340 ... Ockets.pdf

Also, some other manuals state that the M72 pen is against vertical armor.

3. How much armor with a Zuni rocket penetrate? Somehow this is even harder than the 2.75s, I only found the explosive weight in an EOD manual (5-18), and was forced to resort to looking for information on the fuses. That sort of worked (Page 12), I now know the Mk.32 shaped charge will penetrate 3 feet/914mm of concrete. Any way to convert to armor penetration?
http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/EOD%20Refresher%20USAF.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/463359.pdf

Per OP 2626 (1960), recovered from the National Archives by yours truly, the Mk24 HE head does 3 feet of concrete or 2 inches of armor. The Mk.32 ATAP (Anti Tank Anti Personnel, what we'd call HEAT-FRAG/HEDP today) penetrates 450mm of armor at 0 degrees or 178mm at 65 degrees

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pIr_E ... AN-cvv7wiG

6. Any idea how much armor the Mk.77 grenade submunitions used in the M261http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM%2043-0001-30,%20Rockets,%20Rocket%20Systems,%20Rocket%20Fuzes,%20Rocket%20Motors.pdf for the 2.75" rocket penetrates?

They do 4 inches or more of penetration
http://ugcsurvival.com/FieldManuals/FM% ... unnery.pdf

8. Any idea when exactly the 2.75" rockets went to the higher-velocity Hydra motors?

The Mk.66 Mod 1/2 came out in the mid-80s.