Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Guggy » Thu 15 Mar 2018 21:36

Hmmmm regarding the Italian DLC suggested, I'd like to be the first to state "Mama mia!!!" and to suggest "Thatsa spicy meataball!!!"

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Steamfunk » Thu 15 Mar 2018 22:32

However it's more erroneously on the Soviet Sukhois, as it was integrated on the Su-27 as late as in 2003 with the Su-27SM upgrade standard. All of the R-77-mounting Sukhoi models in the game are fantasy units as they aren't capable of using the R-77 in reality. So the spearhead of Soviet fighters is also hugely OOTF


The Su-27PU and MiG-29 9:13S can use them, these aircraft have upgraded radars than can engage multiple targets - the MiG-29M and Su-27M have completely new radars using slotted or phased arrays (Zhuk uses electronic scanning in azimuth). The Su-27SM is a later upgrade to the standard of the Su-27PU, which is now known as the Su-30. The F-15C has this capability as well though I'm not sure how many APG-70 radars were actually fitted and most aircraft were still using the APG-63 well into the 90s. Later versions of the F/A-18C and Super Hornet can engage 4 or more targets which is one of the reasons why the F-14 was retired.

Edit: The Su-30 also has datalinks and can slave targets from the MiG-31, which acts as AEW&C.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby ST21 » Fri 16 Mar 2018 20:21

@ J0h1F

Fine post. Very informative. Thanks. :)

My main gripe about Finland was that it was too unrealistically modelled. All your proposed changes regarding the artillery tubes and mortar carriers are good and would have addressed some of those issues. I could have supported that. Note that i never was against the idea of a Finland DLC per se. It was in my personal Top 10 for new nation DLCs but ranked closer to the middle/bottom. Hope you didnt perceive my criticism as an 'attack' on your country. It wasnt. Its more at Eugen really that my saltiness was directed for the way they handled things. :P

If Finland had decided its side in 1992, there would have been just the MiG-29 (and maybe MiG-31, as that was the Soviets'/Russians' final offer to Finland when MiG-29 lost the fighter competition in 1992 - they'd have sold those even in the real history, so they'd have sold those in the alternative history for sure if Finland had really joined the alternative history WP)


Wow, MiG-31s! Would have been quite unique. Frankly i would have rather preferred those to the MiG-29s. The R-77-armed MiG-29 and AMRAAM-armed F-18C were always redundant to me.

Btw MiG-31 in Finnish markings would sure make a cool "What If" project for kit builders. :D

The only way in which both the MiG-29 and F-18 would have been bought would have been the continuation of the Cold War and the Finnish status quo as a neutral country - as that was how it was meant to be in the late 1980's.


A new Neutral faction where countries like Finland can either join BLUFOR or REDFOR would have been ideal TBH. I know it has been proposed before but it is probably an unworkable idea. :(

The R-77 was indeed integrated on the MiG-29 9.13, but introduced to Russian service 4 years later than in the game to Finnish service (in 1994 instead of 1990). However it's more erroneously on the Soviet Sukhois, as it was integrated on the Su-27 as late as in 2003 with the Su-27SM upgrade standard. All of the R-77-mounting Sukhoi models in the game are fantasy units as they aren't capable of using the R-77 in reality. So the spearhead of Soviet fighters is also hugely OOTF.


Finnish MiG-29 armed with R-77s was too extravagant. A more realistic load of R-27s and R-73s or R-60s, just like on the other NSWP Fulcrums, should have been favored.

Similarly, the 220 RAKH 91 (BM-27 Uragan) in Finnish service is completely fictional - although it was already financed for purchase in the late 1980's


Thats good to know. I thought it was another complitely fictional unit for Finland that was never considered IRL but since it was a planned acquisition, it is easier to accept it.

as in reality there have been completely foot-mobile Finnish TOW 2 (PSTOHJ 84) squads since 1985. That would have been a meme unit par exellence.


Sure would have been. Oh my. And imagine the butthurt from US players that requested TOW infantry squads for years. :lol:
Last edited by ST21 on Fri 16 Mar 2018 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby ST21 » Fri 16 Mar 2018 20:34

@ Fade2Gray

Noted, thanks. Why would anyone join this conversation out of the blue just to post something like that is puzzling to me though.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby J0h1F » Sat 17 Mar 2018 02:48

Sleksa wrote:Tampella was indeed a fairly massive influence on the world of mortars through shell companies like deutam(deutsche tampella), portam (portugese tampella), tamares in england as well as salgad in luxemburg (selling mortars to sweden still in the 70's) and soltam in israel. The germans have been using a weapon called "tampella" on their mortars in wargame for quite a while now while the american m120/121 is a finnish 120krh62 design sold through soltam as the k6 with the help of some bribery. For a tiny nation the domestic development and design of mortars was/is world class.

http://armamentresearch.com/finnish-tampella-160-mm-mortar-system-and-extended-range-hefsds-projectile/


The Salgad mortars were indeed manufactured by Tampella and Soltam. Some Finnish Tampella-made pieces were also sold under the Soltam brand, as Finland had stricter regulations, but the export to Israel was ok. This was the case at least with the Singaporean purchase of the Soltam M-68, which were actually made in Finland by Tampella.

Sleksa wrote:
J0h1F wrote:The 120 TELAKRH 84 (MT-LB Podnos) was apparently introduced as Eugen said there wouldn't be articulated vehicles, and it just happens so that the only traditional tracked mortar carriers introduced in the 1980's (Sisu NA-122 with 120 KRH 85 and later 122 KRH 92) were Sisu tracked articulated mortar vehicles.


https://i.gyazo.com/eaa21c4e436c6c449b9d0cdca573e8f4.jpg

The only non-articulated ones are prototypes such as this sp setup by vammas from the 80's

https://i.gyazo.com/2b9f014249b2d4752a5bb3b1cf952223.png

True, I completely forgot the Vammas competitor to the Sisu XA, which was to mount all kinds of weapon systems (double 95 S 58-61, double 23 mm AA from ZU-23, 120 mm mortar etc.). However that never went past the drawing board, although apparently a prototype of the APC variant was made.

Sleksa wrote:
J0h1F wrote:There would have been the AMOS prototype available also, as it was a joint project between Finland and Sweden (and later finished only by Finland when Sweden withdrew from it) - but Eugen decided that the 160 mm mortar was better suited.


amos was started at the end of 1995 with the first test firing done in 14.02.1996
https://i.gyazo.com/329a480b114f38d765d9cd131dfd2b61.jpg

The first manned test firing was done in 1997
https://i.gyazo.com/2ba94cbf848df9ac22d34aafd0d842fb.jpg

Amos was already being marketed as being able to fit on the xa-180 series in the dictionary of world's weapons '96

The first firings with the AMOS B (also AMOS TD, the first breech-loaded AMOS; the first AMOS A from 1996 is pretty much the same as the currently in-development Swedish Mjölnir) were done in 1997. This was on the CV90 and XA-185 chassis, and later in 2000-2001 on XA-200 and XA-203 chassis also (those XA-200 series were a newer version, AMOS PT1).
XA-185 AMOS TD (notice the propellers for movement in water, which are lacking in the later XA series - though I highly doubt that the AMOS could ever have swum, as it weighs probably too much - the propellers were just leftovers from the chassis):
Image
XA-200 AMOS PT1:
Image
Image
XA-203 AMOS PT1:
Image
Image

Sleksa wrote:The obvious decision was to follow a preset guideline laid by the nswp dlc as well as many others on what the original acquisition programs had in mind before the fall of berlin wall/ussr. This is hardly a new perspective since a glance towards blufor already shows this being the case with us having access to things like eurofighters from 2007, caesars from 2008 or tigers from 2000. While on the eastern side we have half of ddr's cat a-inventory never existing or the czech having access to a slovakian post-ussr development with the moderna.

The problem is not with the choice of units but with the halfway done implementation of the last dlc which left many unit stats completely whacked, whether it be the kvkk 62 being out of line with other mgs or the draken not dropping all its napalm in one go.

Yeah, my point was just to point out it was not just Finland which is partially fictional.

Steamfunk wrote:The Su-27PU and MiG-29 9:13S can use them, these aircraft have upgraded radars than can engage multiple targets - the MiG-29M and Su-27M have completely new radars using slotted or phased arrays (Zhuk uses electronic scanning in azimuth). The Su-27SM is a later upgrade to the standard of the Su-27PU, which is now known as the Su-30. The F-15C has this capability as well though I'm not sure how many APG-70 radars were actually fitted and most aircraft were still using the APG-63 well into the 90s. Later versions of the F/A-18C and Super Hornet can engage 4 or more targets which is one of the reasons why the F-14 was retired.

Edit: The Su-30 also has datalinks and can slave targets from the MiG-31, which acts as AEW&C.

Ah, indeed I forgot that the Su-30 is called with its development name Su-27PU in the game. Anyway, with the other Sukhoi (Su-27M), the integration wasn't yet properly ready and apparently was never finished, although it led to the production variant as Su-35 which has been capable of using the R-77 hardware-wise all the time, and which has the newer R-77-1 integrated to it.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Mike » Mon 19 Mar 2018 12:30

Bougnas wrote: a Faktoryia (the use of this missile is however unique in NSWP IRL).


Which is the Fagot-M from everything I found on the interweb a couple of years ago. Another one of those over sites and inconsistencies.
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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby military nerd » Tue 12 Jun 2018 22:33

i think the game is the best and there is no ones like it,i start play from Wargame: European Escalation.
but our problem is not lack of countries its the time line and stuff in them,anything in the game is limited to 1995-6 no further,for example i like to see f-22 raptor in the game.LAV ad-stryker-M-RAP vehicles-m1a2 sep v-3-leopard 2 a-7-puma IFV and so much more advance military things they used today.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby Mister Maf » Wed 13 Jun 2018 13:26

military nerd wrote:i think the game is the best and there is no ones like it,i start play from Wargame: European Escalation.
but our problem is not lack of countries its the time line and stuff in them,anything in the game is limited to 1995-6 no further,for example i like to see f-22 raptor in the game.LAV ad-stryker-M-RAP vehicles-m1a2 sep v-3-leopard 2 a-7-puma IFV and so much more advance military things they used today.

Technically the F-22 is arguably in-timeframe but it would be real shitty to play against an air superiority fighter with exceptional stealth. Whole point of the game is that it's set in an alternate history Cold War and Red Dragon is already really pushing it in that respect as it is. The things that you (and many, many, many, many, gods you could have used the search function, others before you) have asked for are for a different game that completely discards the 20th century legacy tech.
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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby military nerd » Wed 13 Jun 2018 13:54

Mister Maf wrote:
military nerd wrote:i think the game is the best and there is no ones like it,i start play from Wargame: European Escalation.
but our problem is not lack of countries its the time line and stuff in them,anything in the game is limited to 1995-6 no further,for example i like to see f-22 raptor in the game.LAV ad-stryker-M-RAP vehicles-m1a2 sep v-3-leopard 2 a-7-puma IFV and so much more advance military things they used today.

Technically the F-22 is arguably in-timeframe but it would be real shitty to play against an air superiority fighter with exceptional stealth. Whole point of the game is that it's set in an alternate history Cold War and Red Dragon is already really pushing it in that respect as it is. The things that you (and many, many, many, many, gods you could have used the search function, others before you) have asked for are for a different game that completely discards the 20th century legacy tech.


you right about 20th century legacy tech and its for cold war time but i didnt find a thread about new games so i post my reply here.
from Wargame: European Escalation,till red dragon game really evolve in graphics-game play and the stuff you access in the game so why not create a following game that tell the stories from 1995 till now with more advance tech im sure Eugen Systems can handle it.

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Re: Future DLC’s for Wargame Red Dragon

Postby chykka » Thu 14 Jun 2018 04:18

Greece would of been cool at later time. Turkey too.
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