Player flow - how to design a succesful Wargame

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varis
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Re: Player flow - how to design a succesful Wargame

Postby varis » Mon 26 Mar 2018 03:16

One central point of my argument is that what happens to the seal pups is only one side of the equation. Just as important can be giving teams something to do. Wargame has been pretty bad for that, besides the times when the community had lots of enthusiasm and was organizing tournaments and whatnot.

Look at historical examples:

World in Conflict had a well working ladder system built into the game.
World of Tanks has/had the company match. (4v4 ranked is very different since you don't get randoms to your team.)
Eve Online blew everything out of proportion with tons of PvP mechanics. Basically it's a multi-way PvP where anything from solo players to blobs of 1000 players can asymmetrically engage each other. AVOIDING the engagement is part of the fun, just as is spending 4 hours looking for a fight and not knowing what you get. There's also persistent territory to fight over.

Do you have a favourite you'd think would work for Wargame? Besides "matchmaking" - which TBH can be a bit of a vague answer.

Also I think there might be some weak argumentation from a few players on the forum. Because game X was great and successful and had the feature z, and Wargame 3 didn't have feature z and it was a problem, does not mean that if Wargame 4 had feature z it would be a new record success for Eugen. The fallacy is about ignoring two points 1) the devil is in the details - how to make z work 2) Wargame 4 (or SD II or whatever) would be a different context, or a different soup if you like, from Wargame 3, thus the problems and solutions can be different. (I think the current RD multiplayer situation took years to develop.)

Fade2Gray wrote:Stats needs a revamp. Hiding stats is the wrong answer. When the EUGEN servers got borked and the stats could not be viewed? It was a pubstomper's dream. Out of the few dozen games I played before I gave up until EUGEN fixed it, there was only 1 game that was balanced and enjoyable. The rest were massively stacked, and after a couple weeks the exodus was real. Regulars figured out what was up, and either stacked with teams themselves or bailed. Eventually it was just a bunch of lobbies with pubstomp teams hoping for enough victims to join, waiting an hour, then giving up and leaving. Steel Division only makes this worse, and the pubstomp crews are rampant and it helped drive off a lot of people. Now you see SDN with far less players than WGRD, and that speaks volumes.

Stats needs to be more openness to begin with. There needs to be something that shows in lobby the relative balance of skill. If a newbie joins, there should be something to tell him that he is way out of his league. On top of that, stats needs to include a way to sort the stats. Maybe up top show "win ratio over past week" and "past month." If someone joins who is a 30% overall, but their recent stats is 50%, that would help a lot. Making stats more transparent and out in the open instead of hiding them behind a button that isn't really explained would help out a lot.


It sounds like you're talking of some kind of a competitive rank here. Lots of games have something like that and many players would take their clues from that. A downside would be giving additional incentive for seal clubbing, then again what if it works like ELO (perhaps a team with all high ELO players given a boosted ELO rating vs a mixed team).
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Re: Player flow - how to design a succesful Wargame

Postby Fade2Gray » Tue 27 Mar 2018 04:55

varis wrote:
Fade2Gray wrote:Stats needs a revamp. Hiding stats is the wrong answer. When the EUGEN servers got borked and the stats could not be viewed? It was a pubstomper's dream. Out of the few dozen games I played before I gave up until EUGEN fixed it, there was only 1 game that was balanced and enjoyable. The rest were massively stacked, and after a couple weeks the exodus was real. Regulars figured out what was up, and either stacked with teams themselves or bailed. Eventually it was just a bunch of lobbies with pubstomp teams hoping for enough victims to join, waiting an hour, then giving up and leaving. Steel Division only makes this worse, and the pubstomp crews are rampant and it helped drive off a lot of people. Now you see SDN with far less players than WGRD, and that speaks volumes.

Stats needs to be more openness to begin with. There needs to be something that shows in lobby the relative balance of skill. If a newbie joins, there should be something to tell him that he is way out of his league. On top of that, stats needs to include a way to sort the stats. Maybe up top show "win ratio over past week" and "past month." If someone joins who is a 30% overall, but their recent stats is 50%, that would help a lot. Making stats more transparent and out in the open instead of hiding them behind a button that isn't really explained would help out a lot.


It sounds like you're talking of some kind of a competitive rank here. Lots of games have something like that and many players would take their clues from that. A downside would be giving additional incentive for seal clubbing, then again what if it works like ELO (perhaps a team with all high ELO players given a boosted ELO rating vs a mixed team).

I don't know the full ins and outs of how ranking or whatever would work for RTS (last time I had time to play competitive RTS was with the original Red Alert on Case's Ladder(yes I'm that old (shut up all you youngins!))), but either an auto match system that does a half decent job of balancing or something that helps newbies avoid getting clubbed is desperately needed.
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Re: Player flow - how to design a succesful Wargame

Postby Rabidnid » Wed 4 Apr 2018 01:32

I remember my introduction to Red Dragon.

Trying to play the campaign with no idea what I'm doing and failing horribly.

Playing skirmish versus decks with reduced numbers of units so I wasn't overwhelmed. I think I played beyond 100 of these games before I attempted MP.

Played about 300 MP player games with my win rate going from under 40% to about 44%. Played another 800 games where my win rate when from 45% to 48%.

I hosted a lot of games and always made them themed games on unusual maps. I got a lot of positive comments. Eventually reset my stats and stopped playing for 6 months.

Now my win rate is 52% and I mostly play 10v10 tacticals. People follow me from side to side when I move, so along with the other known players we can get some fun games by splitting between sides.

If you want to know how to make an excellent game copy starcraft or even company of heroes.

Brilliant campaign*
Brilliant skirmish*
Brilliant MP

*In Red Dragon you need to be a moderately capable MP player to have any fun at all in skirmish or the campaign.

15 years ago I wasn't a half blind cripple and could hold my own versus most people in Starcraft. Red Dragon is far less competitive and much more my speed these days.
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Re: Player flow - how to design a succesful Wargame

Postby James-Bond » Fri 6 Apr 2018 02:00

Different angle on this.
Ps i fully support a fair match making but how is thee golden question.

Dunno thoughts about this.
In 'Armored Warfare'
There is PvE mode.
Which online player vs computer

This could potentially be a good in between step to prevent seal clubbing?

You could set up multiple games / scenerios. For users to join.
2v2 3v3 4v4 10v 10 (ai) etc

How would this help?
Dunno if you notice but prep seal club server set up is usually like this:

1.People join server
2. People team switch to one side.
3. One side will fill up early
(Seeing 11 players & 10 is in one team does happen..)
4. People in the stacked team will not leave.
5. People who stay to fight the stacked team, are the poor seals or people just want a game to happen.
6. People who leave the lobby see the stack, and dont want to waste time being clubbed
7. Distribution of player skill is frequently in stacker favor. As some good player cba fighting a stacked team. Seals arent aware what they are up against.
8. Stackers should win if they are competent.

Just to note im not a stacker.
I will fight against stackers if the lobby is nearly full OR my team looks like they wont suck completely. Winning against stackers is so good.

Ps slight tangent but the point im getting at is if there is a PvE mode
Stackers can fight against some kind of AI.
Seals still can get multiplayer game time in safe setting.
Also it can be an outlet for wacky strategies, without ruining the whole game for everyone else.

Most importantly you can starve the stackers
By giving another option so you dont play their game.

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