I know I'm late...

Mandolin
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I know I'm late...

Postby Mandolin » Sat 25 Aug 2018 04:54

but US light infantry do not do what the game says they do.


Light Infantry don't have ATGMS at all.


According to FM 7-8, Regular, Light, Air Assault, Airborne, and Ranger squad are have the same composition, squad leader and two fireteams with M16, M203, and M249.
None of them have squad-level ATGMs. Light don't even have a weapons squad, just a pair of two-man M60 teams. Rangers (who aren't recon) get a MG squad of three three-man M60 teams. The rest get a weapons squad of 2x2 MG and 2x2 ATGM
https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publ ... CH%201.pdf

Bradley units have 9-man squads as well, because three squads in four vehicles made sense to someone.
http://trainingnco.pbworks.com/f/FM+3-2 ... d+(Bradley).pdf


If you want squad-level ATGMs you need to go to Mechanized Infantry, a 7-man squad with oodles of firepower. One Dragon, one M203, two M249s, M16s, and a M60 hanging around if anyone wants it. http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us ... 885%29.pdf

A Mech Inf FIST squad riding in a M113 Dragon would end up with more automatic weapons and anti-tank launchers than you can shake a stick at.


Also, it could be argued that Javelin over Super Dragon (which is Swiss but whatever) is a downgrade, or at least a sidegrade. Super Dragon is 950mm pen and 2km range. Javelin is ~750mm+ pen https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals ... 103621-683 and 2-2.5km range.

So Super Dragon has TOW-2A levels of penetration on a squad-level infantry ATGM

Spoiler : Dragon pen :
Dragon penetration
Chainlinkandconcrete: 480mm
MIlitarytoday: 480mm
Forcastinternational: 500mm
Infantry Magazine: 508mm
Designation-systems.net: 600mm
AlternateWars: 600mm
Armored Cav: 610mm

Dragon II penetration:
Chainlink: 890mm
Forcast: 890mm

Dragon III Pen:
Chainlink: 950mm
Forcast: 950mm


Super Dragon Pen:
Chainlink: 950mm
Forecast: 950mm


http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-77.html

http://chainlinkandconcrete.blogspot.co ... ncher.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=VHQGv ... on&f=false

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapons/US_ATGMs.htm

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/m47_dragon.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=y5zaf ... on&f=false

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... RC_ID=1075



I know I'm late and Eugen doesn't care, but I was looking this stuff up and thought I'd share

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QUAD
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby QUAD » Mon 10 Sep 2018 00:55

Mandolin wrote:but US light infantry do not do what the game says they do.


Light Infantry don't have ATGMS at all.


According to FM 7-8, Regular, Light, Air Assault, Airborne, and Ranger squad are have the same composition, squad leader and two fireteams with M16, M203, and M249.
None of them have squad-level ATGMs. Light don't even have a weapons squad, just a pair of two-man M60 teams. Rangers (who aren't recon) get a MG squad of three three-man M60 teams. The rest get a weapons squad of 2x2 MG and 2x2 ATGM
https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publ ... CH%201.pdf

Bradley units have 9-man squads as well, because three squads in four vehicles made sense to someone.
http://trainingnco.pbworks.com/f/FM+3-2 ... d+(Bradley).pdf


If you want squad-level ATGMs you need to go to Mechanized Infantry, a 7-man squad with oodles of firepower. One Dragon, one M203, two M249s, M16s, and a M60 hanging around if anyone wants it. http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us ... 885%29.pdf

A Mech Inf FIST squad riding in a M113 Dragon would end up with more automatic weapons and anti-tank launchers than you can shake a stick at.


Also, it could be argued that Javelin over Super Dragon (which is Swiss but whatever) is a downgrade, or at least a sidegrade. Super Dragon is 950mm pen and 2km range. Javelin is ~750mm+ pen https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals ... 103621-683 and 2-2.5km range.

So Super Dragon has TOW-2A levels of penetration on a squad-level infantry ATGM

Spoiler : Dragon pen :
Dragon penetration
Chainlinkandconcrete: 480mm
MIlitarytoday: 480mm
Forcastinternational: 500mm
Infantry Magazine: 508mm
Designation-systems.net: 600mm
AlternateWars: 600mm
Armored Cav: 610mm

Dragon II penetration:
Chainlink: 890mm
Forcast: 890mm

Dragon III Pen:
Chainlink: 950mm
Forcast: 950mm


Super Dragon Pen:
Chainlink: 950mm
Forecast: 950mm


http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-77.html

http://chainlinkandconcrete.blogspot.co ... ncher.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=VHQGv ... on&f=false

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapons/US_ATGMs.htm

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/m47_dragon.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=y5zaf ... on&f=false

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... RC_ID=1075



I know I'm late and Eugen doesn't care, but I was looking this stuff up and thought I'd share


Ingame think of mechanized line infantry as meat. Now, I do support penetration buffs to the Dragon series, with range nerfs.
Mobile Units Operational :!:

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McNash
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby McNash » Mon 10 Sep 2018 02:32

Give thanks their missiles doesn't work like the Red Alert 3 javelin launcher.
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Mandolin
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby Mandolin » Wed 12 Sep 2018 16:33

QUAD wrote:Ingame think of mechanized line infantry as meat. Now, I do support penetration buffs to the Dragon series, with range nerfs.
I'm unsure what you're saying.

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FrangibleCover
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby FrangibleCover » Tue 18 Sep 2018 18:17

1991 Mod deals with all of these issues, actually. Dragons for Mechanized Riflemen, Airborne with AT-4s, Rangers in the Infantry tab, Riflemen with Minimis representing Light Infantry formations and Mechanized infantry who have elected to leave the Dragon in the track. Check my signature for the thread link.
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Fodder
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby Fodder » Mon 8 Oct 2018 17:58

Realistic squad compositions would be difficult and a balancing nightmare considering some countries run 8 man squads while others run 13 man squads.
You will have to create more units in order to show the diffference in loadouts between FIST and Mech. Infantry.
Also Im not sure where your getting super dragon 950mm RHA penetration at 2km from because all your links even say 500mm from 1.5km away?

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m47-dragon.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a169682.pdf
Last edited by Fodder on Fri 12 Oct 2018 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

Mandolin
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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby Mandolin » Thu 11 Oct 2018 16:01

Fodder wrote:Realistic squad compositions would be difficult and a balancing nightmare considering some countries run 8 man squads while others run 13 man squads.
You will have to create more units in order to show the diffference in loadouts between machine gun teams and heavy weapons squads.
Also Im not sure where your getting super dragon 950mm RHA penetration at 2km from because all your links even say 500mm from 1.5km away?

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m47-dragon.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a169682.pdf
Did you read the Forcast International paper?

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Re: I know I'm late...

Postby Fodder » Fri 12 Oct 2018 20:50

Mandolin wrote:Did you read the Forcast International paper?

I think your confusing Dragon III with Super Dragon. Link says Dragon III is 950mm but it was cancel in 1989 and the link also says Super Dragon isn't 950mm.

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