Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

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Mr0Buggy
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Re: Polish derailing

Postby Mr0Buggy » Fri 4 Oct 2013 17:27

Did you find anything useful in what we provided MadMat ?

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: Polish derailing

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Fri 4 Oct 2013 17:31

Mr0Buggy wrote:Did you find anything useful in what we provided MadMat ?

Yes ... but sad.
We thought granting an advanced T-80 to a NSWP nation would bring tears of joys, but obviously no one want our T-80BW ... :cry:

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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Mr0Buggy » Fri 4 Oct 2013 17:35

It's not that we don't want it, just from even alternate history standpoint, Poland going after T-80 series would be a lesser possibility [but a possibility nonetheless] than modernizing their current fleet of T-72's, or getting T-72S and even then still modernizing that using indigenous components.

Still, if you need anything else, feel free to ask. We will try our best to deliver.

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Re: Polish derailing

Postby Kamil » Fri 4 Oct 2013 17:42

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Mr0Buggy wrote:Did you find anything useful in what we provided MadMat ?

Yes ... but sad.
We thought granting an advanced T-80 to a NSWP nation would bring tears of joys, but obviously no one want our T-80BW ... :cry:

Twardy 8-)

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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Windmaker » Fri 4 Oct 2013 19:44

In NTW 4/98 magazine posted on previous page there was clear statement - in other article, that we made research in getting T-72S and it's polonization (or how to call it). So all in all in any source I was able to get to, there were only information about T-72 family.

About Czechoslovakia there is a small problem with them as I looked for something for them while reading those articles. All of their modernizations were made much later then even westernized Twardy was made.

I think it'll be much better to even make few unhistorical choices - like Moderna for Czechoslovakia - I know it was made with western parts - then giving NSWP countries another copies of T-80. The thing is that giving them once again similar tanks will make in general similar choices in other types of vehicles and all in all both 3 countries will be the same, while in fact they could be a little bit more different then now. It'll look a little bit like Chimera, but most of those tanks were build but few years later then game time. So it's not as bad as Chimera :)
"War, war never changes"

"Stałem się śmiercią; niszczycielem światów" - Julius Robert Oppenheimer

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Re: Polish derailing

Postby Vasto » Fri 4 Oct 2013 20:28

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Mr0Buggy wrote:Did you find anything useful in what we provided MadMat ?

Yes ... but sad.
We thought granting an advanced T-80 to a NSWP nation would bring tears of joys, but obviously no one want our T-80BW ... :cry:


Wasn't the goal of a few balance patches to make T-72s more popular? It looks like you've made it better than you expected. :D
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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Mr0Buggy » Sat 5 Oct 2013 07:58

Legend:
Existed Irl.
Existed Irl., and there were (some) chances a given nation would have bought it
Completely Sci Fi unit that could have happened.

The Red/Sci Fi units are obviously just some crazed ideas you could use to bring in more flavor to a given nation, or give them a crucial unit they would need, or what could have been born into existence if things went this and not the other way. Don't take them too seriously though.

Comments next to tanks are made from the alternate history standpoint.

Proposed Polish Tanks Lineup:

T-80BW1 - ATGM less tank. Not much to be said here. Either we bought them alone or with a license to produce our own.

T-80BW1 DRAWA/ERAWA - I know, way Sci Fi, but since Poles always fooled around with indigenous methods and components to upgrade their T-72's, there's a fair chance they would do the same to T-80 sooner or later. Named either after the DRAWA FCS or ERAWA ERA bricks depending on what gonna be upgraded in them [actually, mounting ERAWA on the thing would be the most probable, fastest and cheapest of the two ways to significantly improve it's battlefield value]. Of course assuming Kontakt-1 is worse than ERAWA-1 [it's certainly worse than ERAWA 2 though]

[T-72 Wilk moved out of the Polish T-72 line to create a new "shelf" in the armory]
Old T-72 shelf [T-72, T-72M Jaguar and T-72M1 Jaguar as they were]:

T-72S1 aka T-72B1 lite. Not much to be said here. After successful negotiations, we bough the license and started manufacturing them instead of the T-72M1 model. Stats of T-72B I guess. ATGM less and ERA less.

T-72BA ERA – incorrectly referred to as T-72BV, and most likely it's the T-72BW Vasto's paper clipping from Page 1 referred to. Also according to it, still equipped with it's ATGM, could mean it was Poland's first foray into the field. Either License built or bought some amount of them for evaluations considering Poland's NO ATGM fetish within their tanks forces. ERA bricks are a must have.

Poland's new T-72 shelf, beginning with T-72 Wilk, to denote indigenously developed/upgraded models:

T-72M1Z [Twardy M] – Z stands for Zmodyfikowany - Modified. Brainchild of the PT-91 program, it's meant to be a stopgap upgrade during wartime before sufficient amounts of PT-91 can be manufactured, since PT-91 is built from the scratch. Worse stats than eventual PT-91, better stats than Wilk [better accuracy mainly due to Drawa FCS, AP due to new ammo and possibly better AV {17 ?}]

T-72S1Z [Twardy S] – the same deal as with T-72M1Z, assuming we would get license for T-72S. Stats wise it's between T-72M1Z and PT-91, considering superiority of base T-72B over T-72M1. Lesser numbers than those of T-72M1Z [one card ?, 18 AV ?].

PT-91 Twardy – Poland's first indigineous tank developed from scratch using experience gained during T-72 upgrade programs, using components manufactured in Poland. Features DRAWA FCS, ERAWA 2 ERA [19 AV ?] armor and Slovak made stabilizers [good stabs ?].



Proposed Czechoslovak Tanks Lineup:

T-72M1 Kladivo/T-72M1M Kladivo – using Kladivo FCS, named it akin to T-55 Merida. [I don't have any hard data, but this FCS was apparently considered for WILK next to Polish Merida FCS. I'm waiting on a Czech friend of mine if he could perhaps provide more relevant info.] would most likely feature higher accuracy and perhaps better AP to account on using more modern ammunition.

T-80BV/T-72S – no info if the Czechoslovaks ever planned on getting any new tanks, but if worst comes to worst...

Various Post Communism T-72 upgrade programs - No data on when they were introduced, also waiting for that friend of mine for relevant info.

Proposed East German Tanks Lineup:

T-80BV/T-72S. Nothing else comes to mind, considering any modernizations plans [if there were any] were slashed by reunification.

Again, please take any units marked in red half seriously, was just brainstorming some before the sleep yesterday, hence they could be brain farts to a degree.

EDIT: There could be possibility that Czechoslovak and East German T-72's would have been sent to Poland to be upgraded to T-72M1Z standard in this alternate reality as a last resort [or we would be forced to cough up the schematics by uncle USSR so they could do the upgrades themselves]. T-72M1Z Těžce or KPz T-72M1Z Harte anyone ?

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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Mr0Buggy » Sat 5 Oct 2013 15:06

Proposed Czechoslovak Tank Lineup UPDATE:

Ok, so my friend wrote me back with what he found out.

Brief history:
Realization that Czechoslovakian T-72 fleet was very dated and inferior on the modern day battlefield didn't escape then communist leaders, and there were talks with the USSR to get T-72S and T-72S1 for the CSLA, but of course then Autumn of Nations happened, and nothing resulted from those talks. [He didn't specify if those were just tanks or the license too, but I think we can assume the latter.]

In the free Czechoslovakia, discussion about their tanks resumed as early as 1991, however as elsewhere, defense spending was the least concern considering newfound freedom of the Middle European states, and the fall of the Soviet Union, and therofore lack of immediate threat meant that the upgrade programs were given less priority.

Still, in 1992, an evaluation program codenamed Moderna, to determine extent of possibility of modernization of T-72 ,begun in ZTS Martin Traktory Works plant and concluded sometime in 1993. However, with Velvet Divorce on 1st January 1993, effectively Czechoslovakia ceased to exist and two new countries were born. Unfortunately for Czechs, ZTS Martin was located in the Slovak part of the country, and since then, upgrade programs of both, has been somewhat split.

Czech Upgrades within the timeframe:
Due to loss of ZTS Martin to Slovakia, Czech upgrade program was restarted by Military Institute of Land Forces in Vyškově at tank repair plant 025 sometime during the 1993. First result of the program was a prototype seen at IDET Military Expo at Brno in 1994, which was a T-72 with French made sights by companies SAGEM and SFIM, and fitted with DYNA/DYNA-72 ERA manufactured in Slovakia [Slovakian name is DYNAS], as seen below [model with ERA on the left in the background].
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T-72M1 with DYNA ERA, exact model unknown:
Image

However, it was found out that FCS was insufficient to the needs of the modern battlefield, and ergo there was need for further upgrades.

New program codenamed VETRA begun in 1995. And that's pretty much it for RD timeframe. The whole program was bugged with bad spending, corruption and misuse of funds. First prototypes saw light of the day in 1997, and were initially named T-72/97, before being renamed into T-72M3CZ/T-72M4CZ.

Slovak Upgrades within the timeframe:
As written earlier, an evaluation program at ZTS Martin Traktory Works plant was conducted towards concept of modernization of T-72, which was codenamed Moderna. Result was the T-72M2 Moderna [named so after the program], which featured DYNAS ERA armor, two 20mm Oerlikon cannons, along with Slovak developed FCS (by companies Fotona, ZTS Dubnica and EVPU Nova Dubnica).

It is said that there was a prototype by 1993, but for certain the Moderna was also shown at IDET 1994. After that, the project went off the maps but was still being worked upon, however nothing more definitive that presentation prototype from 1994 was shown till end of 1995.

Interesting to note is, that post 1997 Moderna ditched double 20mm Oerlikon cannons [reportedly due to too high stress on the turret ring when firing both of the cannons simultaneously] in favor of single 30mm 2A42 autocannon [manufactured in Slovakia under license].

So about that Kladivo FCS, I mentioned in the previous post. As it turns out, it was indeed proposed back during the Polish Wilk program, however Merida/Drawa was chosen instead. As it stands now, it was only used in Czechoslovak T-55AM2B variant, but it stands to reason that would Czechoslovak T-72 upgrades program continue differently in alternate history, it could have been used and further modified to fit the needs of it, alike how Merida of Polish T-55 became Drawa for our T-72's. Just food for thought.

Anyway, to summarize. For certain CSSR could be given T-72S and T-72S1 tanks, as there were talks to buy them or to get a license to manufacture them themselves.

As for Sci Fi and „could have happened” tanks, the T-72M2 [with or without 2x20mm/30mm cannons], with ERA and better [and locally manufactured] FCS, would be the most likely candidate to be included ingame.

As for T-80, my friend says he didn't find any definitive proof that there were talks of any kind. [he didn't say that there weren't for sure though].

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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Flieger » Sat 5 Oct 2013 15:21

Mr0Buggy wrote:
Proposed East German Tanks Lineup:

T-80BV/T-72S. Nothing else comes to mind, considering any modernizations plans [if there were any] were slashed by reunification.


They planned upgrading their T-72M1 to T-72M1M standard (by Poland and the CSSR) from 1993 on, and introducing Romanian build T-72S from 1995 on. Meanwhile, the armour of the T-72M1 was upgraded in E-Germany.
http://www.militaertechnik-der-nva.de/T ... k2000.html


No T-80s. This generation was to be skipped. If anything, they would have gotten T-90ies... in the 2000s or so.

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Re: Polskie czołgi - dyskusja (po angielsku)

Postby Mr0Buggy » Sat 5 Oct 2013 18:49

So the final draft would look like this ?

Legend:
Existed Irl.
Existed Irl., and there were (some) chances a given nation would have bought it
Completely Sci Fi unit that could have happened.

Proposed Polish Tanks Lineup:

T-72S1
T-72BA ERA aka T-72BV/T-72BW with ATGM and ERA
T-72M1Z [Twardy M]
T-72S1Z [Twardy S]
PT-91 Twardy

Proposed Czechoslovak Tanks Lineup:

T-72S
T-72S1
T-72M2

Proposed East German Tanks Lineup:

T-72S
T-72M1M

T-72 cult should be happy. Now I WWWMS [Wonder What Would MadMat Say]

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