HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

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Hob_Gadling
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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Hob_Gadling » Mon 17 Mar 2014 22:44

Maybe I should approach this from another perspective. I think infantry squads are slightly off. What would you suggest as a fix, considering:

- I want to keep weapon teams as the main way infantry projects power
- I want to avoid Doom Fortresses
- I want to keep line and shock inf separate in practical terms despite their equipment being similar
- I want to make infantry a little more useful in terrain other than cities, and about this level of useful in cities
- I don't want to touch APC/IFV pricing
- and I don't want to make artillery any more powerful than what it currently is

when I want to see a little more infantry on the field? I probably made it too scarce and while it fixes one problem (combat revolving around cities exclusively) it's not satisfactory in other regards. It'd be nice to see infantry a little more commonly.

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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Gronank » Mon 17 Mar 2014 23:09

What always bothered me is that infantry in buildings is they're functionally turrets with little to no mobility and the direct implication that the best way of attacking is throw transport on the front door and unload. That was always a bit silly.

Town assaults should in my opinion optimally be done by unloading your infantry 700m off the target (yes, in the open) and the fight is determined by how much fire support the attacker brings. It doesn't jive terribly well with the "machine guns kills infantry" bit I proposed above, but it should be possible to be made work by tweaking morale damage and health.
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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Soundwolf776 » Tue 18 Mar 2014 09:31

and the direct implication that the best way of attacking is throw transport on the front door and unload.

IMO, one of the reasons why it always was viable is very shallow morale pool which means it doesn't take more than a few seconds to panic an infantry squad, and huge speed penalties on shaken and panic states for infantry. Basically, if you try that "unload at 700m meter and advance on foot" in vanilla, you won't ever reach the buildings because infantry will be slowed down to crawl and wiped out with MG fire.

So, removing those speed penalties seems like one of the neccessary steps.

OTOH, it may be worth pushing in a ROF penalty for infantry in panic and shaken, as for now they don't have any. I didn't do any specific tests, but plain logic suggests that even a dug-in squad in panic can cause excessive casualties to attackers while they're closing in to get into town CQC, simply because the small accuracy penalty panic gives is offset by close range. Thus there isn't much reason to suppress defenders in vanilla, they don't really lose much of their firepower. It also means that APC rushes into towns is the most viable way of attacking - in CQC you don't really care about accuracy again, and casualties from LAWs will be lower then casualties from rifles and MGs.

There's just a "HE" damage type which, as far as I can tell, covers both tank guns and artillery. Increasing HE damage resistance beyond 30% reduction (ie. 0,7) starts to make artillery useless

Well, arty against covered infantry should be mostly morale damager. I doubt that being unable to outright kill infantry would make arty useless. I think I mostly used arty against vehicles, in any case.

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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Gronank » Tue 18 Mar 2014 14:17

Soundwolf776 wrote:
and the direct implication that the best way of attacking is throw transport on the front door and unload.

IMO, one of the reasons why it always was viable is very shallow morale pool which means it doesn't take more than a few seconds to panic an infantry squad, and huge speed penalties on shaken and panic states for infantry. Basically, if you try that "unload at 700m meter and advance on foot" in vanilla, you won't ever reach the buildings because infantry will be slowed down to crawl and wiped out with MG fire.

I always felt that infantry combat lacked supression and morale was used as a poor substitute for it. Morale is and should be something that changes slowlý depending on what hardships the unit is exposed to while supression is temporary and highly dependent on how much the unit is shot at.

It would make entire sense to make supression cause the unit to slow down, lose firepower and maybe gain some damage resistance, but only while under fire.

It might be possible to retool the morale mechanics for infantry to work like supression and just not have proper morale for infantry. It could be done by a massive increase morale health generation so that it compensates for the incoming morale damage. This would be increasing as with the levels of supression such that worried would be the equilibrium state for a little bit of incoming damage while panicked would be the equilibrium state of a whole lot incoming state.
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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Gopblin » Tue 18 Mar 2014 18:23

Gronank wrote:I always felt that infantry combat lacked supression and morale was used as a poor substitute for it. Morale is and should be something that changes slowlý depending on what hardships the unit is exposed to while supression is temporary and highly dependent on how much the unit is shot at.

It would make entire sense to make supression cause the unit to slow down, lose firepower and maybe gain some damage resistance, but only while under fire.

It might be possible to retool the morale mechanics for infantry to work like supression and just not have proper morale for infantry. It could be done by a massive increase morale health generation so that it compensates for the incoming morale damage. This would be increasing as with the levels of supression such that worried would be the equilibrium state for a little bit of incoming damage while panicked would be the equilibrium state of a whole lot incoming state.


^Great idea, wholeheartedly support this! It would be a bit hard to do this for prolonged battles (attacks even a little bit below the "high" regen rate would incur no suppression, and attacks even a little bit above could keep already panicked unit fully suppressed indefinitely), but would be way better than the vanilla morale anyway.

Can regen happen like once per 15 sec or something? It's a contrived solution, but would make the unit suppression go up and down, e.g. a unit under fire would get progressively more worried, then regain a chunk.

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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Gronank » Tue 18 Mar 2014 19:57

Gopblin wrote:(attacks even a little bit below the "high" regen rate would incur no suppression, and attacks even a little bit above could keep already panicked unit fully suppressed indefinitely)

Well, no. Each morale state has its own regen rate. So you have the fire power of a worried rifle squad being enough to compensate for the morale regen at the worried state ( so you have two rifle squads shooting at each other making both worried). Then you have the next level shaken which might correspond to the damage output of to calm squads and then go further for panicked.

It is simply a matter of finding how much morale damage is dealt per time unit for different intense situations and match the regen. One practical problem is that it is not entirely understood how the regen level numbers work as they differ from each other by orders of magnitude, which means that some experimentation is probably required.

This setup do make some things interesting. Machine guns could for example be geared more towards a suppressive role rather than just additional firepower meaning infantry combat is best conducted by combining suppression with moving in infantry close for good shots with rifles, just as it should be.
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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Hob_Gadling » Tue 6 May 2014 02:57

Surprise balance patch! Does anyone still play this mod?

Download:
http://hobmod.com/

Changelog:

Conquest income was changed. You now gain 150 points every 60 seconds per player.
High end tanks were repriced. They're now somewhat cheaper. Unfortunately this means the loss of iconic 250 point T-80U.
Reservists are priced at 5 points per squad.
Line and shock infantry squads are now priced at 10 points per squad. Yes, even the 15 men squads.
Protection and stealth values of terrain were changed. Terrain other than houses now offers more protection. Houses now offer protection based on their type. Big concrete buildings protect more than flimsy wooden sheds.
Deck slot values were made slightly cheaper.
Base deck building points were changed to 30, to allow slightly more freedom in deckbuilding.
T-72 Wilk is now 90 points.
BMP-2 line was repriced.

This messes up all your decks and breaks compatibility with earlier saves. Back up your profile before trying. Installation as usual.

It also breaks destruction mode for the time being. I'll fix it if someone (other than me) still plays destruction.


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Hob_Gadling
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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby Hob_Gadling » Tue 6 May 2014 09:19

Oops. Done fixed!

Also fixed destruction for all y'all.

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Re: HobMod: the comprehensive balance mod for Wargame

Postby raptor910 » Tue 16 Jun 2020 05:28

Would be up for a VS campaign game of HoboMod if anyone still uses it - PM me if interested. Wouldn't mind trying it again

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