Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

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GBNATO
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby GBNATO » Tue 12 Apr 2016 02:12

I quite like the look of this mod, superb for derping around with all the shiny modern toys, and would quite like to help the mod improve in those areas I have knowledge in, namely British vehicles and equipment. :)

DISCLAIMER: All the information I have on this mod is from a 2 month old video, I understand it may well have been changed by now and I am wasting my breath but hey ho.

British Infantry.

Spoiler : :
Anglian Regiment

-The L129A1 is a designated marksmans rifle in the British army in the same vein as the Howa DMR or Dragunov, I am not sure it is suitable as a primary rifle from an authenticity perspective.
-To my knowledge the M72A4 LAW was never procured by the MoD, suitable alternatives would be the ILAW (AT4) MBT LAW or maybe the Carl Gustav M2 (although I don't know when that weapon left service) you could give them the LAW80 but wheres the fun in that.

This unit is also a named infantry regiment which I am unsure is in-keeping with the general trend of generic unit names. An alternative to another UK Infantry line unit could be Airborne recon like the Para Pathfinders. A suitable loadout for them would be a C8/C7 rifle, ILAW and L129 (especially fitting as the Paras were first to be equipped with the new DMR) If you wanted to keep the Anglian regiment I would recommend a speed buff as they are light infantry irl.

Grenadier Guards

-Elite training might be giving the guards a bit too much credit, they're good soldiers (worthy of shock training) but not of the same standard as say SAS or Royal Marines.
-I don't think the MG5A1 machine gun is in general issue in the British army, if at all. the L110A2 (FN MINIMI) is a viable alternative although the Grenadiers, being heavy infantry, could also use the L7A3 which is still in widespread use.

SAS

-The SCAR-H is not officially in use by any branch of the UK military, if you want to give them a Battlerifle the SAS have been known to use a number G3 variants. Canadian C8/7 rifles are also popular as well as the M416 and M4.

Ghurkas

-MP7 was never adopted by the British Armed forces in a frontline combat role, a good close range alternative would be the L22 Carbine, a cut down L85A2.


Support.

Spoiler : :
-I have never heard of any British interest in the AMRAD program, what I do know is that the radars were removed and replaced with an optical-only aiming system cued by a remote radar. something to take into consideration.

-Additions to the UK's AA defences could include upgrades such as the Rapier FSB2, FSC or Rapier 2000. Another option would be the brand new FLAADS system just introduced to the British army as a Rapier replacement (CAMM L)

-An enhanced prototype howitzer could be added to the UK roster, the AS-90 'Braveheart'. longer 52cal gun = longer range and probably the ability to fire guided projectiles.


Tanks
Spoiler : :
All groovy :D


Recon

Spoiler : :
-The Scimitar could be upgraded to Scimitar II standard with improved armour, optics and FCS.

-Potential Marine recon helicopter, Lynx Wildcat armed with a battery of Lightweight Multirole Missiles (Lynx AH.7 would work as a model stand in sort of) http://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Wildcat-Helicopter-and-FASGW-L-Thales-Lightweight-Multirole-Missile-LMM.jpg


Vehicles

Spoiler : :
-What is a Challenger Brimstone and who told you about it? A more fitting alternative could be 'Exactor' a launch platform for Spike ER with a range of 20km, were used in Iraq.
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Tue 12 Apr 2016 03:47

GBNATO wrote:I quite like the look of this mod, superb for derping around with all the shiny modern toys, and would quite like to help the mod improve in those areas I have knowledge in, namely British vehicles and equipment. :)

DISCLAIMER: All the information I have on this mod is from a 2 month old video, I understand it may well have been changed by now and I am wasting my breath but hey ho.

Yep, a few of these things already existed in the mod and just weren't covered in those youtube vids, or have been added since.

British Infantry.

Spoiler : :
Anglian Regiment

-The L129A1 is a designated marksmans rifle in the British army in the same vein as the Howa DMR or Dragunov, I am not sure it is suitable as a primary rifle from an authenticity perspective.

I'm aware the L129A1 is kinda out of place, but the same instance is shared with several ANZAC troops (for whom an upgrade to the Lewis Machine Tools CQB16 would be appropriate) I basically needed a battle-rifle esque weapon that might be shared by several Commonwealth nations. Its just a naming issue. If there's a better option out there, I'm fine with a change

-To my knowledge the M72A4 LAW was never procured by the MoD, suitable alternatives would be the ILAW (AT4) MBT LAW or maybe the Carl Gustav M2 (although I don't know when that weapon left service) you could give them the LAW80 but wheres the fun in that.

The MBT LAW and LAW80 are already on other, higher priced units. I chose the M72A4 based on performance for that price point, rather than authenticity. At moments like this I just sorta shrug and go "Eeeh, US emergency stocks delivered to the Brits in wartime handwave"

This unit is also a named infantry regiment which I am unsure is in-keeping with the general trend of generic unit names. An alternative to another UK Infantry line unit could be Airborne recon like the Para Pathfinders. A suitable loadout for them would be a C8/C7 rifle, ILAW and L129 (especially fitting as the Paras were first to be equipped with the new DMR) If you wanted to keep the Anglian regiment I would recommend a speed buff as they are light infantry irl.

I've been giving units more memorable and iconic names so they're easier to ID on the field, rather than 'Generic nato riflemen #3. Didn't know the Anglians were light infantry. I'd prefer to keep their set-up as is, but would need something appropriate to rename them to.

Grenadier Guards

-Elite training might be giving the guards a bit too much credit, they're good soldiers (worthy of shock training) but not of the same standard as say SAS or Royal Marines.

'Elite' is kinda a wide category for A&S. The UK had Royal Marines '85 that needed a new name. So I just picked the next unit down the totem-pole of bad-assery, more or less.

-I don't think the MG5A1 machine gun is in general issue in the British army, if at all. the L110A2 (FN MINIMI) is a viable alternative although the Grenadiers, being heavy infantry, could also use the L7A3 which is still in widespread use.

One of those 'gameplay trumps authenticity' moments. I replaced the Bren. Several units ended up with the MG5 that authenticity say shouldn't, but, hey, WW3 something something handwave.

SAS

-The SCAR-H is not officially in use by any branch of the UK military, if you want to give them a Battlerifle the SAS have been known to use a number G3 variants. Canadian C8/7 rifles are also popular as well as the M416 and M4.

Another shared instance, this time with US Delta.

Ghurkas

-MP7 was never adopted by the British Armed forces in a frontline combat role, a good close range alternative would be the L22 Carbine, a cut down L85A2.
Thematically that would fit. In practice I'm avoiding adding new weapons where-ever possible.


Support.

Spoiler : :
-I have never heard of any British interest in the AMRAD program, what I do know is that the radars were removed and replaced with an optical-only aiming system cued by a remote radar. something to take into consideration.

Didn't know it went optical. This was another "Country X needs a better thing here, and it just so happens there's this random prototype over there that never found an export market in peacetime...

-Additions to the UK's AA defences could include upgrades such as the Rapier FSB2, FSC or Rapier 2000. Another option would be the brand new FLAADS system just introduced to the British army as a Rapier replacement (CAMM L)

The FSC and Rapier 2000 are in there already. And, currently, everyone seems to love the AMRAD

-An enhanced prototype howitzer could be added to the UK roster, the AS-90 'Braveheart'. longer 52cal gun = longer range and probably the ability to fire guided projectiles.
Pretty sure the Braveheart is in the vanilla version. At least, its called Braveheart inside the game files.


Tanks
Spoiler : :
All groovy :D
No, those tanks are slab sided. No grooves what-so-ever.


Recon

Spoiler : :
-The Scimitar could be upgraded to Scimitar II standard with improved armour, optics and FCS.

The Scimitar has had a firepower upgrade with the CTA 40. A more widespread upgrade of its capabilities wouldn't be too hard if that's what happened IRL

-Potential Marine recon helicopter, Lynx Wildcat armed with a battery of Lightweight Multirole Missiles (Lynx AH.7 would work as a model stand in sort of) http://u0v052dm9wl3gxo0y3lx0u44wz.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Wildcat-Helicopter-and-FASGW-L-Thales-Lightweight-Multirole-Missile-LMM.jpg
The Wildcat is already in there. No missiles though


Vehicles

Spoiler : :
-What is a Challenger Brimstone and who told you about it? A more fitting alternative could be 'Exactor' a launch platform for Spike ER with a range of 20km, were used in Iraq.

The Chally Brimstone is 100% made up by me. I wanted 1) Conceptually, something to do with all those decommissioned Chally 1 hulls that the UK would have sitting around after pushing out more Chally 2's 2) Some nation in the game to have a well armored ATGM monster
I had: 1) The UK swingfire that needed replacing, and 2) The Brimstone missiles I replaced the Swingfires with

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby GBNATO » Thu 14 Apr 2016 13:36

Yo Specter, I downloaded your mod and had a look at the up to date stats. there were just a couple of tincy wincy things which could be sorted out.

-Grenadier Guards, despite being Army infantry are only available in Marine transports. Should have access to the same vehicle set as the Fusiliers.

-Can't get Paras in the AW101 Merlin, not a big issue, just would be nice.

-The Tornado GR.4 with is 12 SA missiles doesn't work all that great since it can only fire of like two of those missiles in a pass, and if you fancy sticking around for like 6 passes you're gonna have a dead GR.4. Maybe it would get the Brimstone II instead of the I, irl that weapons load is supposed to destroy an entire armoured column in a single pass, like so ;)

https://youtu.be/oo6M1ZQcsh0?t=1m10s

And in a way the Harrier is more suited to the SA missile because it's slower with a much smaller payload it will always manage to fire both.
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby PerkingKimchiman » Sun 17 Apr 2016 04:52

Spectre_nz wrote:
Most ROK infantry in Motorized deck depends on 3 cards of KW1 and some choppers.
ROK Motor deck needs cheaper and numerous transport vehicle.
My suggestion is KIA LTV.


Or I can jut add the K-511 to a couple more units.

- sounds okay, but K-511 needs some card availability bonus in that case.

LMAT is underpriced, and Hyungoong needs some buff, too.

LMAT would probably be better off at 25pts but I don't see any reason to change the cost on the Hyungoong's.

- It's not FnF unlike reality, and it also lacks in AP compared to other 25p LMAT.
Finally, LMAT is 5-men squad.


Chu-MAT might need some price nerf, too.

Its a 21AP range 2450 missile. Don't kick a missile while its down. It doesn't need price nerfs.

-Konkurs, a 20 AP range 2450 missile with 45% accuracy is 10p, too.
Raising Chu-MAT to 12p won't hurt.


You can grab up to 4 F3s in BD deck, and that number jumps to 6 in Japan only deck.

So? You have to give over two slots to do this. For a fighter with only 2 radar-AAMs with mediocre range.
And then what? Blue-drag only has one ATGM carrier, and its not great. Pure Japan has none. While it can provide HE support, the Japanese air is more about locking other players out of using the air-space than it is being able to win a battle with air power.

Also, F3 still needs some price nerf.

Wat? God no.
Its priced comparably to the Su-27Pu and trades a considerably smaller missile payload for good stealth.

- But JSDF has some decent high-class ASFs(F-15J, J Kai).
It just doesn't bulk out because F-3 is currently shadowing them with cheaper price and good availability.
If AAM-4's the problem, give F-3 AAM-4B.
I can agree with you about its price, but it still needs its card cut to 1.


ROK Haebyungs, both heavy and vanilla needs some cheaper transport.
K200 or LTV might work.

This isn't a balance issue, this is a 'I want better stuff for my favorite nation' issue.

- Haebyung comes in only 3 types of vehicles(15p LVPT7A1, 15p Super Huey, 17p KW1).
This is hard to understand, since ROKMC operates a wide variety of transports in both reality and this mode(K200, UH-1H, UH-60, etc).
And don't forget that their cheapest transport is 15p,


F111C is underpriced, and JPN F86 is overpriced, too.
Moreover, above picture also shows 65p Aussie F35.


F-86 could do with a price reduction.
65pts for a very niche fighter-bomber (mostly used for suiciding into redfor SAMs). Its more or less a Jaguar Gr.1 with Stealth, better survivability and some missiles for self defense.
They're both cheap because players hardly ever take cluster bombers. 65pts is how far I feel I have to reduce the price so players actually feel like its worth taking a plane that carries two cluster bombs and not much else.

A4K Kahu is overpriced.

No. Its a neat little ATGM carrier that fires its whole payload in one pass then evacs. And AP 30 damage has been scaled up in A&S, so its quite a lot better than AP28.

- But you can get A-10C with 32 Zunis, 4 more Atgms, and incomparable survivability for +20p and -2AP.
I understand that it's good, but it's still kinda overpriced.

ㅇㅅㅇ

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby X42-C1 » Mon 18 Apr 2016 03:08

The AGM-88E is vastly overcosted. Both its carriers are 1 per card and carry only a single missile, but the missile itself is rather weak. It
needs higher availability on its carriers, which should also carry more ammo, or else the missile needs exceptional stats to justify its enormous deck space cost.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Tue 19 Apr 2016 17:08

BLufor SEAD comes with a premium price tag and low availability, since, once they have control of the skies is generally game over.

The AGM-88E has the longest range of all the Blufor SEAD missiles, and can hit all but the best Radar SAMS without having to come into range. Hence the high price.
Taking apart an enemy ADN has intentionally been made more difficult in A&S. Generally, SEAD aircraft are best used to suppress the enemy radar units (if they have jammer pods) while other assets get the kills.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby quark036 » Wed 20 Apr 2016 05:15

I definitely like that philosophy, rather than sead being able to completely pick apart the air defense with impunity like in the earlier versions.

Thanks for all your work!

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Solbok » Mon 9 May 2016 10:27

Just to keep this topic on the first page so that newbies can see.

Btw, I'll try out Visegard with my friends this week. I'll let you know if something balance related issue happens.
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spaßsoldat123 » Sat 21 Apr 2018 00:44

I didn't know this thread existed until now, moving my balance-related post from main thread to here (and also editing many things).

I guess my main complaint is that autoloading tanks just seem kind of OP, because all of the tanks have such high accuracy that morale damage rarely makes much of a difference. As a result, REDFOR and other autoloading tanks seem to always fight at near-full capacity while BLUFOR/non-autoloading tanks are crippled by morale damage even when the rest of the tank is just fine. The top end BLUFOR tanks (Challenger 2, Leopard 2A6 and up, M1A2 Abrams and up) seem to really struggle against even inferior REDFOR tanks, at least from what I've seen. Through some controlled testing with my friend, a group of two T-90A's can destroy a group of two Leopard 2A7's, M1A2 SEP's, Challenger CLIP's, or Challenger 2 Mk. 2's without really breaking a sweat. Generally, the blufor tanks land a few hits, and then are so panicked that they fire at a third of the fire-rate of the redfor tanks. Redfor tanks (and specifically autoloading ones) tend to have lower accuracy when they are panicked, but can fire so quickly that it hardly makes a difference against panicked blufor tanks. I brought up changing the range of blufor cannons earlier, but I think it's a valid way to balance it. The L/55 is said to have a maximum effective range of 5,500m with the DM 63, while the Russian 2A46 seems to go up to 3,000m. Obviously even if you did change ranges I wouldn't expect you to make them that drastic but I think giving some blufor tanks a slightly better range is warranted. A little bit on the L/55, if you're curious:

" . . . [T]he L 55 features optimized barrel material and a longer barrel. In the L 55, a larger share of the energy resulting from a
round being fired is converted into greater velocity. This leads to an enormous increase in maximum range" (Rheinmetall).

Spoiler : :
"Die DM 53 (LKE II) stellt die letzte bisher bekannte Entwicklung dar. Die DM 53 wurden insbesondere in Hinblick auf die Bekämpfung von Kampfpanzern mit modernsten Mehrschichtpanzerungen und zusätzlichen Reaktivpanzerungen entworfen. Der Penetrator besteht aus einer speziellen Wolfram-Schwermetall-Legierung. Das bisherige Leichtmetall Flügelleitwerk wurde duch ein Stahlleitwerk ersetzt um die höhere Belastung beim Verschuss aus der 120 mm Kanone L/55 aufnehmen zu können. Die DM 53 kann aus den Kanonen L/44 und L/55 verschossen werden. Dabei liegt die Mündungsenergie der DM 53 rund 15 % über dem Wert der alten Muition für die Kanone L/44 und sogar um 30 % beim Verschuss aus der Kanone L/55" (kotsch88.de).

'The DM 53 (LKE II) is the last known development. The DM 53 were especially designed to combat main battle tanks with state-of-the-art multi-layer armour and additional reactive armour. The penetrator is made of a special tungsten heavy metal alloy. The previous light metal wing guide unit was replaced by a steel tail unit to absorb the higher load when firing from the 120 mm L/55 cannon. The DM 53 can be fired from the L/44 and L/55 cannons. The muzzle energy of the DM 53 is about 15% higher than the value of the old ammunition for the L/44 cannon and even 30% higher when fired from the L/55 cannon.'


While I remember this I should throw it in: Instead of Bo-105's for the Germans, you could give them EC-635's instead. If you do end up wanting to change stats, the versions I'd recommend could carry four PARS missiles plus a .50 cal, 8 PARS missiles, 4 stingers, or FFARs and a .50 cal. It's also about 50 km/h faster on average. Here's an excerpt from Airbus talking about armament and optics:

"The aircraft is offered with a weapon system that incorporates a multi-purpose mission computer; an electro-optical system with
infrared/TV camera and laser rangefinder for observation and laser designation; a ballistic targeting system (helmet mounted
system); and two multi-purpose weapon pylons.

The easily removable multi-purpose pylons allow symmetrical as well as asymmetrical armament configurations, with twin air-to-
ground INGWE missile launchers, 12-tube and 7-tube 70 mm unguided rocket launchers, a 20-mm cannon pod and 12.7-mm
machine gun pod, along with potential for laser-guided rockets."

Note: I'm sure the Germans wouldn't use INGWE missiles, they'd likely mount the same PARS pods as we see on the Tiger, or possibly a Spike.

Spoiler : :
Image
Image


EDIT: The Chinese need some serious nerfing. Their tanks are far too effective to be as cheap as they are. It makes playing against Chinese AI damn near impossible, let alone players.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Tue 24 Apr 2018 13:56

Generally this thread isn't used any more, all the balance discussion is going on in our discord server.

Redfors autoloaders have been in since eugen made the game, and they make for a good differentiation between the two tank styles. There are some auto-loading tanks on blufor, but overall, if you're finding your tanks are being overwhelmed with the volume of fire (if you're playing AI, fyi, AI cheats and gets more credits to spend than a human player would) you should be using the Blufor strenths, air power, from planes and helos, to make up for it. Plus, taking cheaper units to force the enemy to spread their fire and soften up the enemy tanks so your superheavies can get in and kill things.

All tank gun ranges are compressed down to a max of 2275m range in game. This represents 3500-4000 'real life' meters.
The in game weapons that have 2450m in game range are representative of weapons that have 5-7km 'real life' range. Extended range rounds that are fired on high trajectories and automatically seek their target, like the KSTAM round.

The EC-635 would be an interesting upgrade. I'll consider it.

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