'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historians)

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Salamander7734
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'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historians)

Postby Salamander7734 » Thu 3 Apr 2014 21:24

The objective is to combine the knowledge and imagination of the players from the original authentic deck project with the creativity and ingenuity of the dudes that modded the unmoddable to create a mixture between the two. A mod that makes units available in battalions, so that decks are actually brigades then add the Authentic Deck project so that we make realistic brigades, and can get people meeting to have battles with these decks (Preferably using the whole idea of objective based battles.) with as little over management as possible.

As I said RaduM has already agreed to help, but with 1450 units in the game I am sure even he could do with some help xD Also we need people with knowledge of TO&Es to come up with how many of what in a battalion for each nation to make it as realistic as possible.

This is a wild and wackey dream, almost on the level of W:AB Noobs, but I am gonna try my absolute hardest to get it to work and I really appreciate any help I can get from any member of the community however big or small!

Currently what is really needed is for people who really know TO&Es for nations in red dragon to help with the availability of units. Basically front line units (Motar carriers, infantry, tanks, command vehicles, some helos) should come in battalions (Or the number that would be in a battalion), support units (AA, arty) should come in batteries, aircraft should come in flights. Currently on have the UK, any sources for other factions would be nice, any lists like this one for other factions that people want to contribute would be even better! Also if people want to look over the ideas thus far and point out any errors they see. For the ones I make if it has a (?) next to it it means I am unsure and if its a (-) then it was never used but this is an estimate based on similar units.

Spoiler : UK :
Lynx AH.1 = 0, 4, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Sultan = 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
FV511 Warrior = 0, 5, 0, 0, 0
HQ section = 0, 5, 0, 0, 0
Rover CP = 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
AT501C = 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Stalwart, Chinook and FOB can stay as is
Fusiliers = 0, 39, 0, 0, 0
Fusiliers '90 = 0, 39, 0, 0, 0
Gurkhas = 0, 0, 36, 0, 0
Gurkhas '90 = 0, 0, 36, 0, 0
Blowpipe = 0, 36, 0, 0, 0
Javelin = 0, 36, 0, 0, 0
Milan = 0, 20, 0, 0, 0
Milan 2 = 0, 20, 0, 0, 0
Paratroopers = 0, 45, 0, 0, 0
Paratroopers '90 = 0, 45, 0, 0, 0
Royal Marines = 0, 0, 33, 0, 0
Royal Marines '90 = 0, 0, 33, 0, 0
SAS = 0, 0, 0, 8, 0
Territorials = 0, 18, 0, 0, 0
FV432 (M) = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Abbot = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
M109A2 = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
AS-90 = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
Falcon = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0 (-)
Chieftain marksman = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0 (-)
Challenger marksman = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0 (-)
M110 R.A = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
M110A2 R.A = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
M270 MLRS = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Stormer HMV = 0, 36, 0, 0, 0
Tracked Rapier = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Tracked Rapier FSA = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Challenger 1 Mk. 1 = 0, 50, 0, 0, 0
Challenger 1 MK. 2 = 0, 50, 0, 0, 0
Challenger 1 Mk. 3 = 0, 50, 0, 0, 0
Challenger 2 = 0, 38, 12, 0, 0
Chieftain Mk. 2 = 0, 57, 0, 0, 0
Chieftain Mk. 5 = 0, 57, 0, 0, 0
Chieftain Mk. 10 = 0, 57, 0, 0, 0
Chieftain Mk. 11 = 0, 57, 0, 0, 0
Scorpion Light Tank = 0, 48, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Fv101 Scorpion = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
Fv107 Scimitar = 0, 12, 8, 0, 0
Fv721 Fox = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
Fv103 Spartan = 0, 10, 0, 0, 0
Fv712 = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
Fv701 = 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
Rover Pinky = 0, 4, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Gazelle = 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
Gazelle SNEB = 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
Green Jackets = 0, 36, 0, 0, 0 (?)
SBS = 0, 0, 0, 4, 0
Centurion AVRE = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Striker = 0, 24, 0, 0, 0
Fv432 Rarden = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Fv601 Saladin = 0, 12, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Rover Wombat = 0, 16, 0, 0, 0
Rover Milan = 0, 16, 0, 0, 0
Lynx Tow = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Lynx Tow 2 = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Lynx 3 = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Lynx 20mm = 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
All planes in 0, 2, 0, 0, 0
Last edited by Salamander7734 on Fri 4 Apr 2014 17:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby The W:AB Noob » Fri 4 Apr 2014 06:16

So you are asking somebody to start the mod? Why did you not ask me in the modding factory. (well I am getting a little clogged up...)
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby Salamander7734 » Fri 4 Apr 2014 10:24

We have a moder, really after people with historical knowledge and sources xD
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby MrRed » Fri 4 Apr 2014 13:17

For the Russian side:

http://www.armouredacorn.com/refs--thum ... !1989/c8sv

From my research, ind tank bttns kept T-62s with BDD armour till quite late. And equipment varied between regiments a lot. Also, it appears that the Strelas began to be replaced by Tungushkas in 1984 in BMP and tank regiments.
Also, the AAA began to be replaced by BMP-2s with strela launchers on top.

So by 1989, AA detachment of regiments consisted of Tungushkas and BMP with strela for tank and BMP regiments (mechanized) and Strelas and Shilkas or Byriusas for motorized ones. also, the number changed from 2 Platoons of 2 vehicles to 2 platoons of 3 vehicles.

EDIT:
For NATO side:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37695/NATO-Or ... attle-1989

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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby MrRed » Fri 4 Apr 2014 17:07

On another note, I think you should limit the scope of what you are trying for a certain era. It will eliminate most of the units in game and greatly simplify your efforts. Also, strategic assets should be removed. From what I thought about, regiments seem to be a good way to go for the soviets as combined arms groups. For the West I thought that brigades should make more sense. In the end, I think that the best way is to focus on regiments/brigades for the battle itself and division in the deck building tab. This would mean that you would have access to your regimental/brigade core assets plus elements from the division they are a part of. Building mixed arms decks would be quite authentic this way.

I think early 90s is a good place to start (lots of toys) and I did some search about tanks that would be available to the several nations. Equipment should be divided into three categories:

Guard or 1st rate or whatever you wish to call them, line and reserve or low priority or whatever you wish to call them. this is basically to be able to simulate an actual engagement where troops had different levels of equipment allocated.

For the Soviet Union:
Armoured:
T-64B(M) and BV for second line troops
T-80BV and U for line troops
T-80U and UM* for elite troops
Cards representing Bttns so 30 tanks each.

T-62M and some form of T-72B for independent tank bttns (40).

Motorized Rifle Regiments:
T-72A for second line troops
T-72B with K1 for line
T-72B with K5 and possibly BU for elite
40 tanks per card

For the US (based on Gulf War TOE):
Armour and Mechanised (difference was that mechanized divisions had one less armoured bttn and one more mechanized infantry bttn):
older M1IP and M-60A3
line M1A1 and M1IP
newer M1A1 and M1A1HA
Again, cards represent bttns so 54 tanks per card

For the Marine corps:
Well the usual marine corps TOE had tank bttns at 70 strength. In the Gulf war they lowered to army standards but in this case, I think 70 would do.
older M-60A1 ERA
newer M1A1 and M1A1HA
As mentioned above, each card x70

UK:
older Chieftain Mk11
line Challenger Mk2
newer Challenger Mk3
Size here is already well discussed by Salamander

France:
The French regiments are mixed arms and they hold either 54 or 70 tanks separated into 4 squadrons or 5 squadrons. If anyone knows how equipment was replaced in the french army (if by squadron or whole regiments) let me know.

Armoured (Dragons, Cuirassers or Chars de combat):
older AMX-30
line AMX-30B2
newer Leclerc*
AMX-30 and B2 regiments hold 70 tanks and leclerc and B2 in 54 tank regiments. This means each squadron holds 13 tanks so cards should come as squadron size and double squadron to be able to represent each component of the regiment.

Infantry:
older AMX-30
line AMX-30B2
French infantry regiments seem to hold 2 squadrons of tanks (26) constantly.

Germany:
The Germans seem to have somewhat more homogeneous composition than the French. The first Bttn of a panzer brigade will have less tanks.

Armoured:
Old Leopard 2A1
line Leopard 2A4
New Leopard 2A4 and A5*
Each tank bttn has 41 tanks except for the first in each brigade which holds "only" 28. So cards should come in 41 and 28.

Infantry:
Leopard 1A5
Infantry tanks were all upgraded in the early 90s to 1A5 standard so no need to fuss about anything else. Each 1st bttn on the PanzerGrenadier Brigade has 13 Leopard 1 tanks so cards should come in 13.

the German territorial army still used the M48. Its numbers were also 41 per bttn that had them.

Warsaw pact nations had similar organization to the USSR but with different models. I think an early 90s mod would see armoured divisions fielding the T-72 (including B with and without K1 probably) and latter variants of the T-55 and infantry fielding latter marks of the T-55 with horse shoe armour and newer FCS.

tanks marked with an * means that they are really stretching the limits of feasibility but for fun, at least one bttn could be included. This exercise is not by any means over. I can do at a latter date the availabilities for the IFVs and what those IFVs should bring to the fray. Hope you find this helpful.

The way to mod this ingame, I would suggest using Soundwolf's idea and force people to choose a deck specialization by making generic decks have 0 points.

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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby Salamander7734 » Fri 4 Apr 2014 17:34

That Armoured acorn link is really good, thanks!

Already had the NATO one, though mostly used this for UK:

http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/uk/uk_toe.pdf

All the UK TO&Es from 1970 to 2000 xD

Ill get to work drafting a soviet availability first! :)
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby MrRed » Fri 4 Apr 2014 18:28

Salamander7734 wrote:That Armoured acorn link is really good, thanks!

Already had the NATO one, though mostly used this for UK:

http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/uk/uk_toe.pdf

All the UK TO&Es from 1970 to 2000 xD

Ill get to work drafting a soviet availability first! :)


Well, let us coordinate. I can begin taking a look into what IFVs should be available next for the selected I mentioned. I find a systematic approach works wonders for me. :)

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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby Salamander7734 » Fri 4 Apr 2014 18:37

First attempt at Soviets, need help on a few bits.
BDM-1K 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
BDM2-k 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
BMP-1k 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
T-72K1 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
T-80UK 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Kommande Otdelenie 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
UAZ-469U 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
BRDM-2U 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
BTR-70K 0, 3, 2, 0, 0
Gornostrelki 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Gornostrelki ’90 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Morskaya Pekhota 0, 0, 18, 0, 0
Morskaya Pekhota ’90 0, 0, 18, 0, 0
Motostrelki 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Motostrelki ’90 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Faktoriya 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Konkurs 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Konkurs-M 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Igla 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Igla-1m 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Strela-3 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Sapery 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Sapery ‘85 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Spetznaz 0, 0, 0, 8, 0
VDV 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
VDV ’85 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
2S1 Gvozdika 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2S3 Akatsiya 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2S3M Akatsiya 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2S7 Pion 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2S7M Malka 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k33 Osa 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k33 Osa-AK 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k33 Osa-AKM 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9K330 TOR 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k37 Buk 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k37 Buk-M1 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-21 Grad 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-27 Urgan 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-30 Smerch 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BRDM-2 Strela-1M 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Strela-10M 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Podnos 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Vasilek 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZS9 Nona 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZS23 Nona-Svk 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
Ural-Zu-23-2 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZSU-23-4MZ Biryusa 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2k22 Tunguska 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2k22 Tunguska-M 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
All tanks 0, 36, 27, 0, 0
Recce vehicles 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
Recce helos 0, 6, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Razveoka 0, 27, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Spetznaz VMF 0, 0, 0, 4, 0 (?)
ASU-85M 0, 36, 27, 0, 0 (?)
All ATGM carriers 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
All BTR-15E2 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
All AT cannon carriers 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Flame thrower tanks 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Jeeps 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
TOS-1 Buratino 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BMPT 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Not sure on helo
Airplanes 0, 2, 0, 0, 0
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby wargamer1985 » Fri 4 Apr 2014 18:46

I can help on planes for most countries and US units
APPLY TO THE GLORIOUS CULT OF THE WARHAWK! LIBERATING NAZIS SINCE 1939!
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Re: 'Authentic' Deck Project mod (Calling armchair historian

Postby MrRed » Fri 4 Apr 2014 19:40

Salamander7734 wrote:First attempt at Soviets, need help on a few bits.
BDM-1K 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
BDM2-k 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
BMP-1k 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
T-72K1 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
T-80UK 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Kommande Otdelenie 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
UAZ-469U 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
BRDM-2U 0, 3, 0, 0, 0
BTR-70K 0, 3, 2, 0, 0
Gornostrelki 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Gornostrelki ’90 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Morskaya Pekhota 0, 0, 18, 0, 0
Morskaya Pekhota ’90 0, 0, 18, 0, 0
Motostrelki 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
Motostrelki ’90 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Faktoriya 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Konkurs 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PTUR Konkurs-M 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Igla 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Igla-1m 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
PZRK Strela-3 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Sapery 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Sapery ‘85 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
Spetznaz 0, 0, 0, 8, 0
VDV 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
VDV ’85 0, 27, 0, 0, 0
2S1 Gvozdika 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
2S3 Akatsiya 0, 8, 0, 0, 0
2S3M Akatsiya 0, 8, 0, 0, 0

2S7 Pion 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2S7M Malka 0, 6, 0, 0, 0

9k33 Osa 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
9k33 Osa-AK 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
9k33 Osa-AKM 0,4, 0, 0, 0
9K330 TOR 0, 4, 0, 0, 0

9k37 Buk 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
9k37 Buk-M1 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-21 Grad 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-27 Urgan 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BM-30 Smerch 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BRDM-2 Strela-1M 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Strela-10M 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Podnos 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
MT-LB Vasilek 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZS9 Nona 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZS23 Nona-Svk 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
Ural-Zu-23-2 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka 0, 4, 0, 0, 0
ZSU-23-4MZ Biryusa 0, 4, 0, 0, 0

2k22 Tunguska 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
2k22 Tunguska-M 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
All tanks 0, 36, 27, 0, 0 - ??
Recce vehicles 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
Recce helos 0, 6, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Razveoka 0, 27, 0, 0, 0 (?)
Spetznaz VMF 0, 0, 0, 4, 0 (?)
ASU-85M 0, 36, 27, 0, 0 (?)
All ATGM carriers 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
All BTR-15E2 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
All AT cannon carriers 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Flame thrower tanks 0, 9, 0, 0, 0
Jeeps 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
TOS-1 Buratino 0, 6, 0, 0, 0
BMPT 0, 12, 0, 0, 0
Not sure on helo
Airplanes 0, 2, 0, 0, 0


Artillery is a bit off. If you mean to represent a gun battery, it was 8 guns with 3 batteries making a bttn. A 122 mm bttn was the organic complement of a tank regiment.

As mentioned earlier, AA batteries consisted of 2 x 2 AA vehicles usually Strela and Shilka. After they were replaced by 2x3 Tungushkas and 2x3 BMP with 3 manpads inside. BTR and tank regiments were different and kept the 2x2 shilka and 2x2 strela.

Tanks are also a bit off. Since I suppose you removed one command tank per company for those values. While this is ok for Motorized rifle regiments since they get one bttn of tanks with 4 companies, the T-72K will fill this role. For the Armoured regiments, they get three tank bttns making a total of 90 tanks available plus, the regimental command tanks (2) and 3 bttn command tanks. So, the T-80UK would have to be boosted to 14 tanks. I would keep the company command tanks in numbers... makes it simple, just increase command tanks to 5 and you have the exact number of high level command tanks in a regiment. Also, T-72s should have 40 per card, all others 30... well maybe T-62 has both options.

Missile AA batteries in AA regiments were comprised of 4 launchers so the numbers should reflect that.

What I underlined above were the units that have no place in this game imho and should be removed. They are strategic assets and do not contribute to gameplay positively.
As for the AGS teams, I would make 3 engineers in 3 BMP-1Ds to have the AGS-17 and to be anti infantry as it was mainly their role. In guard regiments, it could be replaced by the BMPT or something like that.


As an example, a Soviet tank regiment should have:

-5 command tanks
-3 tank bttns giving a total of 90 tanks (of one model like a T-80 or T-64 regiment)
-1 inf bttn (BMP) with 30 BMP-2s plus a bttn BMP. Here we can remove the 3 company HQs giving it 27 BMP-2s and 4 command BMPs
-6 120 mm mortars
-3 BMPs carrying 9 manpad carrying troops.
-3 BMP-1D carrying assault engineers
-3 122 mm gun batteries giving it an organic 24 guns
-6 MBRL launchers
-2 platoons of 2 Shilkas (4)
-2 platoons of 2 Strelas (4)
-4 recon BDRMs and4 recon BMPs. Motorcicle recon section is probably well represented by recon inf inside BMPs or BTRs
-plenty of logistics capabilities (more on that on another post)

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