Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

RaduM
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Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby RaduM » Tue 13 May 2014 22:08

Ok, so I am working on my BattleGroup Mod which substitutes the more classic RTS considerations of unit building (off-map call-ins in our case) and resource gathering (point income in our case) with a pure tactical experience (start out with a well-rounded battlegroup) sprinkled generously with realism.

Now my question is in regards to Infantry Squads and I am making a new thread as the answers given here will likely benefit more than myself.

So here goes :

For an 8-man Infantry Squad with the following composition : 6 x Riflemen + 1 x Squad Machinegunner + 1 x Squad AT Gunner, how many rifle magazines (per soldier), how many Squad MG magazines (per squad) and how many Squad AT Rockets (per squad) can be reasonably carried at maximum?

Reasonably carried = Midpoint of maximum accepted encumberance per soldier (maximum weight carried) and maximum accepted ammo authorization from a logistics point of view (maximum ammo allotted to the squad in real life).

If anybody cares, the context is such that in my BattleGroup Mod there is no rearmament, just like in real-life. However there is such a thing as too much of a good thing and I feel Infantry is most exposed to this.

Thus, if you have any hands-on knowledge about how much ammo an Infantry Squad can/does carry, please speak up.
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby wargamer1985 » Tue 13 May 2014 22:11

Depends on the MG, but rounded I think 500-ish rounds would be good (maybe less if they are carrying a LAW)
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby The W:AB Noob » Wed 14 May 2014 01:57

RaduM wrote:Ok, so I am working on my BattleGroup Mod which substitutes the more classic RTS considerations of unit building (off-map call-ins in our case) and resource gathering (point income in our case) with a pure tactical experience (start out with a well-rounded battlegroup) sprinkled generously with realism.

Now my question is in regards to Infantry Squads and I am making a new thread as the answers given here will likely benefit more than myself.

So here goes :

For an 8-man Infantry Squad with the following composition : 6 x Riflemen + 1 x Squad Machinegunner + 1 x Squad AT Gunner, how many rifle magazines (per soldier), how many Squad MG magazines (per squad) and how many Squad AT Rockets (per squad) can be reasonably carried at maximum?

Reasonably carried = Midpoint of maximum accepted encumberance per soldier (maximum weight carried) and maximum accepted ammo authorization from a logistics point of view (maximum ammo allotted to the squad in real life).

If anybody cares, the context is such that in my BattleGroup Mod there is no rearmament, just like in real-life. However there is such a thing as too much of a good thing and I feel Infantry is most exposed to this.

Thus, if you have any hands-on knowledge about how much ammo an Infantry Squad can/does carry, please speak up.


There are a bunch of people who serve or have served in the military, just look at the recruiting page and PM a bunch of guys. Based on my experience with Project Reality (a huge BF2 mod which focuses on reality only), I can imagine (for the US Army/Marines as an example) that there are 8 clips for each soldier, 5 rifleman, 1 AT (who carries a general purpose rifle) and 1 SL, and 30 rounds in each clip, so 1680 rounds in total. The squad automatic rifleman with an M249 carries 3 belts of rounds, each with 200 bullets, and the anti-tank rifleman has maybe 2 LAWs, with maybe another assistant carrying another 2 for a total of 4. But this a totally loaded-out squad that is meant for a large engagement with the enemy, and most squads even in the field of combat would probably be carrying less, expecting to be resupplied. Remember, this is just my opinion made from a very realistic video game, who is supported by a team of military experts and veterans.

EDIT: Forgot to mention some things -
First, it depends on the battlefield situation, but the RoF for one soldier I would say is 1 round for 2 seconds at long range, 1 round per second for an intense battle. So realistically, the RoF would be 630 rounds per minute for a squad of 7 rifles. & guns reloading at the same time has basically no reload time, but counting that each soldier takes 5 seconds to reload, would bring the RoF to about 595 rounds per minute. The M249 SAW has a RoF of 725 rounder per minute, but reload would be about 10 seconds.
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby Mandolin » Wed 14 May 2014 04:19

Well, you've got 10 guys. 1 MG guy, one assistant gunner (most of this stuff is 7.62 belt-fed), and 8 rifleman. If reloadable AT weapons, AT gunner and assistant. Otherwise, everyone gets one

8x 30 round mags per rifleman, as stated. 240 rounds times 8 is 1920, throw in the AG with say 5-6 mags. 2100 rifle rounds. G3/ FAL users have 20-round mags, 1400 rounds total.

SMGs: Same as rifles, I think.

MG gunner with, say, 300 rounds 7.62 or 600 5.56. AG can carry 4-500 more, 6-800 for 5.56
The MG should be the primary weapon, especially for MG3 users. 100 rounds 7.62 or 5.56 belted for 6 guys, for +600 rounds
There's also mag-fed MGs. RPK, RPK-74, Bren, and FAL MG versions
RPK: gunner with 8x 40-round mags and 1x 75-round drum, AG with 6x 40 rnd, 1x 40rnd per rifleman
RPK-74: Gunner with 8x 45-round mags, AG with 6x 45rnd, 1x 45 rnd per rifleman
Bren: Gunner w/ 8x 30 rounds, AG with 6x30 rounds, 2x 30 rounds per rifleman
FAL: Same as Bren.

AT weapons: RPG-7 type, gunner with 2 rounds, AG with 3, 2-3 more per squad. If heavy RPG-29 type, reduce by one or two

LAW type: 1 primary user with 2-3 rounds, 7 guys with 1 each.

So:
Rifles:
__5.56, 5.45, 7.62 Soviet: 2100 rounds
__7.62 NATO: 1400 rounds

MG:
__7.62 belt: 1300 rounds
__5.56 belt: 2000 rounds
__RPK: 955 rounds
__RPK-74: 990 rounds
__Bren: 900 rounds
__FAL: 900 rounds

AT:
Reloadable: 8 rounds

Disposable: 10

5.56 rifle have more ammo than 7.62 rifles, as do 5.56 belt MGs. Mag-fed MGs have less ammo, but reload faster and most should be CQC.

If you're dealing with SF units, +2-4 rifle mags per man, +2-3 more belts for the MG, and +2-3 AT rounds.

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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby The W:AB Noob » Wed 14 May 2014 05:00

Mandolin wrote:__7.62 NATO: 1400 rounds

Well that depends on if this is pre-1980

Mandolin wrote:Well, you've got 10 guys.

US Army = 8
USMC = 13
USSR Motorized = 8
It really depends on the army, so what RaduM really wants. But note:
RaduM wrote:For an 8-man Infantry Squad with the following composition : 6 x Riflemen + 1 x Squad Machinegunner + 1 x Squad AT Gunner, how many rifle magazines (per soldier), how many Squad MG magazines (per squad) and how many Squad AT Rockets (per squad) can be reasonably carried at maximum?


Mandolin wrote:1 MG guy, one assistant gunner (most of this stuff is 7.62 belt-fed)

When there is a machine gun, yes there is an assistant, but in the case of an 8-man squad, it is usually a Squad Automatic Weapon which only needs 1 man and nowadays is 5.56

Mandolin wrote:AT:
Reloadable: 8 rounds
Disposable: 10

I'm looking for a definite answer on this but 8 re-loadable rounds are a bit hard to believe.
There is no say that even two people can carry 10 AT4's meaning that each is carrying 74 pounds more than what they already carry!

Mandolin wrote:If you're dealing with SF units, +2-4 rifle mags per man, +2-3 more belts for the MG, and +2-3 AT rounds.

There are so many different SF units and really, it depends on the mission. Some SF units have more than the regular infantryman, some have less. For that one, RaduM might have to get creative.
Last edited by The W:AB Noob on Wed 14 May 2014 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby Cheesehead » Wed 14 May 2014 06:04

Another factor is given that a squad is mechanized and not doing road marches, they would have extra ammo and AT rounds on their transport vehicle that would be readily accessible in battle. (compared to say resupplying a vehicle) For example, Bradleys have a lot of storage space for extra ammo, MRE's, etc. Ideally a best case, realistic simulation would be that special forces would carry a small bit more of ammo, but given their nature, wouldn't re-supply nor would they have extra ammo on their vehicles since they're more likely to be going in on helicopter or foot. Meanwhile, line infantry would use their transports up until they reach contact or near a predetermined jump off point where they would disembark. You either simulate this by giving transports a slight supply capability (somewhat unrealistic though since it would allow HP regeneration and supplies for other units) or simply give units increased ammo amounts to simulate the extra ammo on vehicles.

Granted, this is just my 2 cents if your trying to realistically model infantry.
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby RaduM » Wed 14 May 2014 08:32

Cheesehead, you've made my head explode! :shock:

I mean, it was right there in front of me.

You -can- (and rather easily I might add) :

1) Make pretty much any unit carry supplies
2) Instruct IF a unit is resuppliable.

So in our case, with Infantry being the exception in terms of resupply (vehicles require a more laborious and lengthy rearming procedure, sometimes involving cranes and other heavy machinery and taking 15-30-45 minutes, while Infantry can just reach out and grab stuff) it is the ONLY unit in the mod that can be resupplied. No other unit except Infantry can be supplied.

So Infantry Carriers also acting as ammo carriers for their squad works and damn elegantly so! Yes, there's the issue of HP regen, but if I am not mistaken, I can tweak is so that it costs zero to regen HP but it takes forever (like 6 in-game hours) so that HP regen is still present but meaningless.

You're a genius!

As for the original question, I'll go with :
- 8 x rifle magazines per soldier
- 4 x AT rockets per squad
- 6 x Squad MG belts (or 12 x Squad MG magazines) per squad

And as for extra ammo in the APC/IFV, I'm thinking an extra full squad ammo loadout in the carrier would be a good ballpark.
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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby strike_lf » Wed 14 May 2014 11:23

Dear all,

I re-started modding infantry after the new patch 430000295 but I encountered something strange which I also saw before (but at that time it was not a problem). Why some infantry vehicles, present in the armoury section, disappear when I enter in the Battlegroup Creation (Create button)?

WAIT a moment, please... I must tell you all... I changed the UnitTypeTokens of some vehicles and combined infantry, as example US m113 (13332) and US Riflemen (13582) so they both can be chosen for categories: Support DAD77965E3000000 and Motorized 5E767965E3000000 (US riflemen also mechanized, armoured and paratrooper units) but M113 do not appear in Support deck, neither in Motorized deck, but both M113A1 and M113A3 (cause UpgradeRequire Command) in the Armoury.

M35 Truck does the same thing with paratroopers and there is no infantry at all for armoured deck (I limited it only to M2 Bradley variants, which are correctly present in mechanized deck).

It seems to be another command somewhere which interfere with UnitTypeTokens. IS it correct?
Is there someone else who had the same problem and he/she discovered the solution?

Thanks.

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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby Mikeboy » Wed 14 May 2014 12:06

You now also need to go into unittype and change the filters.

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Re: Realism Help! Infantry Squad Ammo

Postby RaduM » Wed 14 May 2014 12:19

What you are seeing is the new "Filters" present in the Armory/Battlegroup in W:RD creation clashing with the unit type.

More precisely, besides the UnitTypeToken specifying which Battlegroup Type a unit belongs to, you must also update the filters as well. What you need to do is go to :

the TUniteAuSol -> Modules -> TypeUnit (should be the very first module) -> Default -> Filters (like I said, the problem is the filters, if you try to make a mixed deck, no filters applied, you should see all units there) -> Filter Number 3 (Map 3)

At Filter Number 3 you should see exactly the LocalisationHashes corresponding to Battlegroup Types that you would see in UnitTypeToken. Make sure that all the info present in UnitTypeToken is also present in Filter Number 3 in the TypeUnit Module.

As a general reflex, whenever you make changes in UnitTypeToken you should immediately update Filter Number 3 in the TypeUnit Module, that way there's no mismatch.

In conclusion, Strike_lf, your gut feeling was right on the money. Good modder instincts! :)
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