WIP: Airland Dragon

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Sireyn
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WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby Sireyn » Fri 20 Nov 2015 06:27

I'm posting this mostly to see if there is any real interest in a mod like this and maybe receive some constructive feedback. Most information is in my Google Sheet as it's what I work out of.

Google Sheet : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Make sure to make a backup of your originals. This is just my Work in Progress
WIP NDF_Win: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B31b3s ... sp=sharing
WIP ZZ_Win : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B31b3s ... sp=sharing
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is an ongoing personal project to bring back the fun of Wargame:ALB's combat while enhancing the newer systems in Red Dragon. There are no drastic deviations from vanilla gameplay; it's more of a supplement to it.

This was designed primarily with Coop PvE in mind with considerations towards the campaign
This is very much a Work in Progress
I'm always looking for cool ideas and feedback, even if you don't plan on using a mod like this

--------------Some Global Changes
- General massive increase in tank availability, especially high-end units
- Tanks cards come in multiples of their doctrinal tank platoons (4 for Nato, 3 for Russia/Eastern Block)
- Soviet-doctrine tank formations are groupable into sets of 3 instead of 4 (Hard to touch infantry without gameplay concerns in cities)
- Specialized decks have had their unit choices expanded: Tanks like Leo2a4's and M1A1[HA]'s are now mechanized for example
- FOB Supply Capacity increased to 20k
- All those 5-pt transport trucks everyone used as fodder? They carry supplies of about half that of their logistics counterparts
Supplies could be lower or higher; half supplies at half cost seems right.
- Heli Commands removed in favor of additional infantry commands (6 total)
- Ground based Radar Anti-Air ranges generally increased (7km max instead of 5600m) (Subsequent ranges are proportional to each other instead of linear steps)
- Most ground based IR ranges increased by one step (eg. 2625m to 2800m)
- Deck system modified to accommodate the new unit availabilities (note: no availability increases in deck creation)
- Autocannon-type AA ground range increased to 1400m minimum
- Minigun-type weapon range increased to 1225m range minimum (Blackhawks, recon humvee, etc)
- F14 back to air tab
- T90S moved to East Germany
- Kpz70 pen increased to 16 (same gun as leopard 2)
- Many 76mm guns get the option to fire smoke rounds (Scorpion, V-150 76mm, etc)
Will most likely include other vehicles; vehicles like the scorpion benefited the most as a support vehicle for a concept test

--------------Some In-Progress Changes
- Getting the XML Patcher working for this mod
- Huge increase to SEAD's detection range (mapwide?) and missile range to compare with new ranges
Idea being a SEAD acts in part as recon, detecting active radar units at range, scouting their ADN
- Strategic level AA availability reduction closer to what vanilla patriots are (Buks, I-Hawks, etc)
- Tactical level AA availability increase (Shilka, Vulcan, etc)
- Remove a lot of useless units and reroll into something useful or different as ideas come about
- Change of which units are of what deck specialization. In essence, reclassifying of what units deck specs can be composed of
- Smallish HE value added to cluster munitions (
- Infantry rockets usable against helos (trying to workout a good accuracy/RoF/aim time. damage was set to 9 to prevent auto-kills of armored 10hp helos)
- Tracked vehicles get only a small bonus to road speed, typically 10km/h over their offroad speed. In testing this delayed armored and mechanized formations long enough for motorized and airborne troops to establish themselves.
(still need to find a way to balance the fuel "timer")

USA
US in the game felt very bland in comparison to other nations while seemingly trying to overcompensate with huge superweapons with controversial gameplay effects. I wanted to diversify unit capabilities without giving out overpowered stats.

The US infantry lacked a couple major things in vanilla: a real shock infantry and a real SF unit. (See Spoiler)
The AH-6 Little Bird and MH-60 DAP didn't seem to fulfill any necessary roles so I rerolled them as unique transports for Delta Force and Navy Seals, respectively. As the DAP doesn't have a troop carrying capability I'll keep it as a placeholder for something similar. (Thanks W:AB_Noob)
Spoiler : :
- MBT-70 pen increased to 15, as it's HEAT
- 152mm guns HE increased to 5
- Delta Force get AH-6C Little Bird transport w/ miniguns and rockets
- Navy Seals get MH-60L DAP transport as placeholder for something similar
- Marine 90's get LAV-25 transport
- Light Rifleman and Redeyes replaced with US Airborne and US Airborne '90, respectively
- Light Rifleman '90 changed to Mountaineers
- "Normal" Apache added to mechanized and armored decks and year changed to 1985
- Apache Longbow Hellfires split into 2 groups (You have the option to double-tab targets, micro separate targets, or conserve ammo)
- Hellfire C supply cost reduced to 450
- F14 Tomcat back to Air tab
- Removed Huey Hogs
Image

Plans
- ATACMS either replaced with normal MLRS or add normal MLRS as an additional alternative unit
- A closer look at every aircraft and its loadout
- - - Alternative A-10 variant with different loadout
- - - Reroll F18C or duplicate Super Hornet into dedicated interceptor
- - - Reroll one of the F18's into bomber
- Add a Tow atgm team

USSR
If the US focus was on its infantry the Russian's is definitely its tanks (naturally). Choosing between tanks is difficult in vanilla game due to a lot of overlap in capabilties and significant overpricing with certain units. In combination with deck specializing, I wanted to make each line feel unique in some way, especially in how it related to Western comparables.
Generally, Russians get less tanks per card, but more cards in addition to some sane price balancing.
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These are only some examples of the direction I'm heading. Please feel free to comment with any ideas or constructive feedback. Thanks to the community for providing so many awesome guides and tools!
Last edited by Sireyn on Fri 20 Nov 2015 21:39, edited 5 times in total.

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The W:AB Noob
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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby The W:AB Noob » Fri 20 Nov 2015 07:20

Sireyn wrote:I'm always looking for cool ideas and feedback, even if you don't plan on using a mod like this

Cool, then feedback you will receive...

Sireyn wrote:I'm posting this mostly to see if there is any real interest in a mod like this and maybe receive some constructive feedback. Most information is in my Google Sheet as it's what I work out of. I'll link downloads on request for now as versions are changing by the hour.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This is an ongoing personal project to bring back the fun of Wargame:ALB's combat while enhancing the newer systems in Red Dragon. There are no drastic deviations from vanilla gameplay; it's more of a supplement to it.

This was designed primarily with Coop PvE in mind with considerations towards the campaign
This is very much a Work in Progress
I'm always looking for cool ideas and feedback, even if you don't plan on using a mod like this

--------------Some Global Changes
- General massive increase in tank availability, especially high-end units
In # of deck cards of availability per deck card? Sounds good though.
- Tanks cards come in multiples of their real life tank platoons
I assume you mean RL organization for each country. How will you find that out about small countries? And shouldn't every other type of unit be scaled to that too?
- Soviet-doctrine tank formations are groupable into sets of 3 instead of 4
Okay. I know the US in Vietnam had infantry platoons of 3 squads too, don't know about later. How about helicopters?
- Upped the bar for specialized decks. Tanks like Leo2a4's and M1A1[HA]'s are now mechanized
Upped the bar? In terms of...
- FOB Supply Capacity increased to 20k
Okay
- All those 5-pt transport trucks everyone used as fodder? They carry supplies of about half that of their logistics counterparts
Decent idea. Maybe not half, maybe 1/3 or 1/4.
- Heli Commands removed in favor of additional infantry commands (6 total)
Should have been done in the first place
- Ground based Anti-Air ranges generally increased (7km max instead of 5600m)
So about everything x1.25? Same with anti-heli too?
- Deck system modified with end-user decks in mind (no availability increases in deck creation)
IDK what end user deck means
- Autocannon-type AA ground range increased to 1400m minimum
Let's see how that goes.
- Minigun-type weapon range increased to 1225m range minimum
Not AA, I assume
- F14 back to air tab
Classic move.
- T90S moved to East Germany
Okay.
- Kpz70 pen increased to 16 (same gun as leopard 2)
Seems to make sense.
- Many 76mm guns get the option to fire smoke rounds (Scorpion, V-150 76mm, etc)
And not other tanks?

--------------Some In-Progress Changes
- Huge increase to SEAD's detection range (mapwide?) and missile range to compare with new ranges
I have no idea what this will do to gameplay.
- AA availability balance towards tactical level units with strategic AA being closer to a vanilla Patriot
So, less avail overall?
- Remove a lot of useless units and reroll into something useful or different
Have you decided what the rerolls are yet?
- Lots of switching around what goes into what deck specialization
In terms of bonuses? In terms of unit filter?
- Smallish HE value added to cluster munitions
I'm not sure if this can work... You can have rockets that have the Cluster FX but are really HE.
- Infantry rockets usable against helos (trying to workout a good accuracy/RoF/aim time)
Talk to Narc Black about this
- A note on that : damage was set to 9 to prevent auto-kills of armored 10hp helos
Okay, still don't know the effect on gameplay.
- Tracked vehicles get only a small bonus to road speed, typically 10km/h over their offroad speed
(still need to find a way to balance the fuel "timer")
Again, no idea.

USA
US in the game felt very bland in comparison to other nations while seemingly trying to overcompensate with huge superweapons with controversial gameplay effects.
Amen, brother!
I wanted to diversify unit capabilities without giving out overpowered stats.

The US infantry lacked a couple major things in vanilla: a real shock infantry and a real SF unit. My solution was to create US Airborne in CAT A and C variations that copied the Marine loadout. For non-airborne decks there are now Mountaineers, a 15-man line infantry with a good weapon selection for static defense. Delta Force have fallen a long, long way since European Escalation. I didn't want to give them "Uber" weapons or copy an existing loadout, so I made new weapons. They operate like a long range fire support in towns.
All I get from this paragraph is that you're making some changes. I have no idea what you will do specifically.

The AH-6 Little Bird and MH-60 DAP didn't seem to fulfill any necessary roles so I rerolled them as unique transports for Delta Force and Navy Seals, respectively.
DAP never transported, attack only.
Spoiler : :
- MBT-70 pen increased to 15, as it's HEAT
- 152mm guns HE increased to 5
Okay
- Delta Force get AH-6C Little Bird transport w/ miniguns and rockets
I hope you're not so stingey about models.
- Delta Force reequipped with M4, M203, and SR-25 (see picture)
Oh, so M4. What is the timeframe of the mod?
- Navy Seals get MH-60L DAP transport
Above.
- Marine 90's get LAV-25 transport
Okay.
- Redeye and Light Rifleman replaced with US Airborne and US Airborne '90 to provide a much needed shock infantry (loadout same as marines but 10 man squads)
So, what will Airborne have?
- Light Rifleman '90 changed to "Mountaineers" (Same loadout but 15-man squads)
- "Normal" Apache added to mechanized and armored decks and year changed to 1985
- Apache Longbow Hellfires split into 2 groups
What does this mean?
- Hellfire C supply cost reduced to 450
- F14 Tomcat back to Air tab
- Removed Huey Hogs
Image

Plans
- ATACMS either replaced with normal MLRS or add normal MLRS as an option
I don't think it's that realistic to add "normal" MLRS as an option.
- A closer look at every aircraft and its loadout
- - - New A-10 variant
Called?
- - - Duplicate Super Hornet into a CAT A interceptor?
This is beginning to sound a lot like Wished Dreams
- - - Reroll one of the F18's into ground attack
Aren't the already Ground Attack (technically Multiroll, but who uses it for CAP?)
- Add a Tow atgm team
Not man portable, but whatever, Eugen broke enough rules.

USSR
If the US focus was on its infantry the Russian's is definitely its tanks (naturally). Choosing between tanks is difficult in vanilla game due to a lot of overlap in capabilties and significant overpricing with certain units. In combination with deck specializing, I wanted to make each line feel unique in some way, especially in how it related to Western comparables.
Generally, Russians get less tanks per card, but more cards in addition to some sane price balancing.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

These are only some examples of the direction I'm heading. Please feel free to comment with any ideas or constructive feedback. Thanks to the community for providing so many awesome guides and tools!


First, I hope you know your modding skills, because this is ambitious. I don't know you, if you have computer skills, if you've been modding W:RD for a long time, etc.
In some ways, your mod sounds a lot like Wished Dreams and All Out War.
But it's hard for me to predict what your mod will be like because you make so many gameplay and balance changes. Each one can totally redesign how games are played, what tactics are best, what units are OP. You might have tested some of these out already, IDK. BTW, I took a tiny look at your spreadsheet. Why would F-14 be a proto?
W:RD Sandbox Mod 5.4.2, the Final and Ultimate Patch Click -> Image

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Sireyn
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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby Sireyn » Fri 20 Nov 2015 07:43

What's posted on the spreadsheet is more planning than anything set in stone. I've been modding Red Dragon for the better part of this year now working specifically on this mod. Prior to Red Dragon I've been modding since the beginning of Fallout 3 with everything from unique textures, UI, to limited scripted events. (Haven't played Skyrim since the Creation Kit came out)

Most of what's posted for this mod is already done, I'm just doing repeated playtests to address balance concerns and come up with more ideas.

In some ways, your mod sounds a lot like Wished Dreams and All Out War.

I was definitely inspired by these mods. I tried most of the available mods on this forum at some point or another but I always wanted to add or change something. Usually with mods like this I don't ever bother posting; but it's grown into something much larger than originally intended, so I thought I'd see what others think about it.

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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby KattiValk » Fri 20 Nov 2015 10:03

I kind of came here expecting a conversion mod that brought back ALB stats to everything. :(

This is still interesting too. :)

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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby molnibalage » Fri 20 Nov 2015 14:27

I can't see the conception. Later I will aks and give feedback. At first sight I found many serious issues in your plan.

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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby Strichtarn89 » Fri 20 Nov 2015 14:42

Not gonna lie, this sounds like it's gonna be a pretty solid mod. I love the idea of the US getting a dedicated shock infantry. Warms my heart to see that it's Paratroopers too!


Glad to see the T90S moved to the GDR. If only it had an "authentic" East German paint scheme instead of that hideous North Korean one it currently has... :|

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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby molnibalage » Fri 20 Nov 2015 16:52

Strichtarn89 wrote:Not gonna lie, this sounds like it's gonna be a pretty solid mod. I love the idea of the US getting a dedicated shock infantry. Warms my heart to see that it's Paratroopers too!


Glad to see the T90S moved to the GDR. If only it had an "authentic" East German paint scheme instead of that hideous North Korean one it currently has... :|

At first sight

I have bad feelins because of recon planes. The RL recon capability means very, very strong over modeling.
Such uber powerful SEAD which acts from map scale range also means over modeling.
He planes to stronlgy buff long range SAM (HAWK (?), Patriot, Buk (?), Kub (?), Neva (?)) ranges while leave untouched SARH and ARH missile ranges values... Hm...
More superheavies...? While in ALB they did not even existed except T-80U and Leo2A4 comparing to other tanks? Even these were not as so demigd tanks because even C cat BLUEFOR deck had 22AP Swingfire with better ACC what T-80U gun had. As I can remember T-80U had 40% base ACC with 2275 m range while Swingfire had 40% base ACC at 2675 m. In A cat deck you could have even TOW2 with 25AP with 70% base ACC or spammable iTOW jeeps with 22AP and 60% base ACC. So ATGM units enjoyed range advange comparing to even best tanks.

If he wants back the feeling of ALB fist of all we need get back ATGMs on field. In ALB in same comparing with tanks guns ATGM had ACC parity on gun range or advantage. Just check the calc. ATGM ACC in 2275 or especialyl 2100 m range. In ALB 2275 m gun range was priviliage only very expensive tanks and except a very, very few med tanks (in ALB they were partially havy) M1IP or Chieftain Mk.10, their bas ACC were 30-40% even base Leo2 had 30% base ACC. Now compare this to RD. It is very hard to find non DPRK and PRCK tank below 40% base ACC above CP...

Because of superheavies med tanks got in RD insane level of BUFF while ATGMs mostly reamined the same or made them into worse with multiple ACC dice rolls. In ALB another diff was that a 80-90CP tanks mostly could not be killed easly with 1-2 cell of inf because even best RPG type weapon had only 18-19 AP with a very few exception on very specialited units.

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Sireyn
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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby Sireyn » Fri 20 Nov 2015 17:44

Thanks for all the replies!
A couple things I'll address. First being I don't plan on retaining anything that ends up breaking gameplay.

The RL recon capability means very, very strong over modeling.

This is definitely a concern, however without playtesting I'm not willing to throw out the idea of offering alternatives to the current recon system. I intend it to work closer to how some naval units can see that a unit exists at extreme range without being able to identify it until roughly engagement range. This of course requires some testing to make sure it isn't overpowered.

More superheavies...?

Generally yes. In ALB most of the best tanks you could get came in larger quantities, so they were more easily expendable and easier to distribute.

we need get back ATGMs on field

For sure. I have a couple ways I'm going about this. First I want to give most dedicated atgm vehicles a stealth rating of some sort to prevent tanks from spotting them at max range on their own. Atgm infantry were already buffed to get a larger "to-miss" bonus for their size as 2 or 5-man squads.
Second I'm testing with slowing down the road speeds of tanks to give atgm's more time to put missiles out. This makes the differences in range much more noticeable.
Even with that, most atgm's in the game still aren't usable due to their accuracy. I've increased the accuracy of Milan 1's and 2's by 10% and playtesting to see how things are affected before I do sweeping changes.

If only it had an "authentic" East German paint scheme

I repurposed Commisar Dornez's olive drab T-72BU skin for the T90S. You'll have to do it yourself if you want it though. PM me if you need help.
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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby molnibalage » Fri 20 Nov 2015 18:22

This is definitely a concern, however without playtesting I'm not willing to throw out the idea of offering alternatives to the current recon system. I intend it to work closer to how some naval units can see that a unit exists at extreme range without being able to identify it until roughly engagement range. This of course requires some testing to make sure it isn't overpowered.

In case alone using AC is a bad idea even with helo and exceptional opctics likely won't see anything during doing circles. The problem is in case you assign next to strike AC especially AGM. It will be holy weapon. With SEAD escort simply make a pass over the battlefield and your AC kill everyting. One of the few wise decision of Eugen was not to apply recon AC.

Generally yes. In ALB most of the best tanks you could get came in larger quantities, so they were more easily expendable and easier to distribute.

As I can remember you had only a single card of M1A1, T-80U or Leo2A4. Most of playes usd lots of older tanks supported with ATGM becase ATGM firepower was good for doing dmg support against superheavis and base acc and fire rate of tanks + faster morale dmg. made possible to swarm on a few on a single superheavy tank.

With stats of RD giving multiple card os superheavy means you won't see the same scale of battles what in ALB where lots of 30-90CP category tanks were used.

For sure. I have a couple ways I'm going about this. First I want to give most dedicated atgm vehicles a stealth rating of some sort to prevent tanks from spotting them at max range on their own. Atgm infantry were already buffed to get a larger "to-miss" bonus for their size as 2 or 5-man squads.

Giving plan stealth modifier would mean imbalance. In case you set smaller nois or other "spot caues effect" is another story.

Second I'm testing with slowing down the road speeds of tanks to give atgm's more time to put missiles out. This makes the differences in range much more noticeable.

Not the road speed is the issue. As long as good and best med and even heavy tanks can move with 60-70 km/h on terrain and their gun range is 2275 across almost the huge TAN tab most of ATGM can gun a single ATGM before tanks get in range in case they are lucky. Many times this value is 0. From my aspect give ALL tanks -175 range increment. And this still wouldbe not enough. At max. gun range why would ANY tang gun have higher ACC what ATGMs have...? This is totally unreal and stupid. If gun ACCs and range remains the same no one of ATGM should hav lower base ACC than TOW, which is 50%. And even this provides small or none advantage because tanks in armored deck can be elite, so 60-65% base ACC tanks with elite XP beats the 3XP ATGM units in gun range...

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Sireyn
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Re: WIP: Airland Dragon

Postby Sireyn » Fri 20 Nov 2015 19:45

The problem is in case you assign next to strike AC especially AGM.

I can definitely see your point with the recon. Perhaps I can come up with an alternative but I'll hold off on that idea.

As I can remember you had only a single card of M1A1, T-80U or Leo2A4

I went back and checked. They came in single cards of 4, 6, and 8 for all the top tanks. Far different than Red Dragon's single cards of 2. I may want to follow ALB's pattern but for now I'll keep running games and see how tanks like M1A2's and T90's interact when there are more of them, considering their cost.
Most tanks with 19/20 pen or armor were added to mechanized decks to compete with these tanks. I'm looking at possibilities for other decks, like longbows in support and making atgm's viable counters.

most of ATGM can gun a single ATGM before tanks get in range.....And this still wouldbe not enough. At max. gun range why would ANY tang gun have higher ACC what ATGMs have...? This is totally unreal and stupid.

All points I agree with. I suppose one obvious answer is to increase damage of shots that pen across the board. I read someone else's idea to make every pen above a targets armor do 4 damage (eg. 22 pen vs 20 armor = 8 damage). Seems like a solid idea but I don't have a good enough idea on how that might affect things like atgm planes or ifv's.
The other being to increase atgm accuracy and/or reduce tank accuracy, especially on the move. I'm experimenting with different accuracy values for atgm's to remedy exactly what you said.
I'm really open to any ideas here and willing to experiment in my games.

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