Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

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Spectre_nz
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Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Sat 26 Mar 2016 01:23

This thread is for discussions on balance changes for the A&S mod.

Balance change arguments can be made from;
Armory/hidden file mechanic theory and number presentations
or
Performance analysis from replays

Both have their strengths and weaknesses. The Weakness of #2 is that results are dependent on player skill levels and tactics or in the case of single unit matchups, it represents of individual units in a vacuum and does not account for higher levels effects that may occur on a complex field. The weakness of #1 is unit statistics alone to not give a perfect account of the capabilities of a unit under all conditions.
For example: The low autonomy of the Japanese heavy tanks. A problem for mobility on large maps, much less so for games on small maps.

So understand that 'balance' is an imperfect thing that varies with map size, available terrain, coalition composition and so on.

Generally, my preferred approach to issues of balance, ranked sequentially in preferred mechanism of change is;
1) Change cost
2) Change vet levels
3) Change availability
4) Change individual stats
5) Change weapon loadouts

And finally, some things are deliberately 'imbalanced'. Example: Poland and Czechoslovakia have, as a general rule, a rather inferior air-force. To balance this, polish and Czech planes tend to get both a cost and an availability/veteran buff to boost their competitiveness.

Ok. With all that said: Lets discuss units that are over or under-performing.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby X42-C1 » Sat 26 Mar 2016 03:15

US Cavalry Scouts are significantly underpriced, compared with Javelin ATGM teams, Light Riflemen (1996) and Delta Force. While there appears to be some attempt at balancing these units though how many ATGMs they carry, Cav scouts are not only the cheapest of the units, but the cheapest per missile as well. Delta are also slightly too good, or Javelin ATGM teams are slightly too expensive, but the issue is far less pronounced than with Cav scouts.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Solbok » Sat 26 Mar 2016 04:20

How do you guys think about the strength of Czechoslovakia? I thought their strength was in their infantries but after playing soem games and making some decks, I found that their infantries are slightly inferior to Soviet, especially the anti-tank part. Their best ATGM team is Konkurs-M, not Komet, their airborne shock infantries has RPG-30, while Soviet has RPG-29 Vampir. They come up with old APC from 1960s and 1970s (OT-64 series), and Soviets come up with nice new Bumerang. If you think of Airborne infantries role, they have to deal with any kinds of enemy units since they usually become the frontline to secure the important strategic center and keep it until next reinforcements come. Thinking of that, anti-tank ability of Czech infantries are really lacking.

To solve this, addition of new vehicle transprot "Pandur-II CZ" available for every infantries, or IFV "KBVP" to vehicle tap would work, to reinforce those infantries to efficiently deal with enemy frontline IFVs or tanks trying to overwhelm them.(Information of those equipment are right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandur_II#Czech_variants) Another solution is powering up Pancerovnici's RPG-7V to RPG-29 Vampir, with up pricing for balance. Just powering up its airborne shock infantries that I wrote wouldn't be fun, since it's just making them same as Soviets.
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Sat 26 Mar 2016 16:20

X42-C1 wrote:US Cavalry Scouts are significantly underpriced, compared with Javelin ATGM teams, Light Riflemen (1996) and Delta Force. While there appears to be some attempt at balancing these units though how many ATGMs they carry, Cav scouts are not only the cheapest of the units, but the cheapest per missile as well. Delta are also slightly too good, or Javelin ATGM teams are slightly too expensive, but the issue is far less pronounced than with Cav scouts.


I agree the Cav scouts are too cheap. I guess I never changed their price after bumping them up to carry the Javelin.
I'll make some adjustments in cost.

How do you guys think about the strength of Czechoslovakia?

I do think the Czech vehicle section could do with some improvement. Czech mech has the MCG-1, which has its strengths, but not available for moto or airborne.
I looked at the Pandur-II, but for some reason, never added it. I'll revisit that.
I'll look at improving their Mi-8's with the something along the lines of the recent Mi-8AMTSh modernization as well.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Narcissistic Black » Sun 27 Mar 2016 10:17

Why uh.. didn't you just use your Mod forum for this?
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Mon 28 Mar 2016 15:58

I have a forum?

Or did you mean the other thread?
Because if the later, the thread is filled with chatter, one off unit suggestion posts and bug reports. Amongst that, a balance discussion would be harder to follow, and new-comers to the thread are much less likely to read through the existing discussion and understand where the current discussion is focused.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby X42-C1 » Thu 31 Mar 2016 04:59

500kg bombers are not well balanced currently. The modifications to the Tornado GR.1 GP Mk.10, Mirage F1M and A-6E Intruder have made them significantly better/more cost effective than their closer to stock companions, including:

F/A-18A Hornet (ANZAC)
Tornado IDS (Germany)
MiG-25RBF (REDMED)
MiG-29S (USSR)
IL-102 (USSR)
J-16 (China)
F 35 Draken WDNS (Denmark)

All of which are clearly inferior in price, bomb load and/or availability to the aforementioned three.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Sat 2 Apr 2016 19:35

500kg bombers are not well balanced currently. The modifications to the Tornado GR.1 GP Mk.10, Mirage F1M and A-6E Intruder have made them significantly better/more cost effective than their closer to stock companions, including:


Almost none of those planes on the list are actually stock any more.
A couple are over-costed in comparison to all the rest, so I've dropped it's cost; however, I'm still leaving it at a similar price level to the Tornado Gr1. Mk10 as, while it has no payload beyond its bombs, it has higher availability and REDMED as a nation can fling a lot of HE in general.

The IL-102 cost was not changed from stock, but I did give it 12HP. I'll drop it by 10 points; however, its high cost reflects the fact that it's very survivable, both with 12 hp and 2/1/2 armor.
The J-11 should stay where it is. 50% ECM, better than every other 500kg bomber, and it carries 4 mid teir IR-missiles.

The German IDS, small bomb load, but carries 4 top teir IR missiles.

I'll put in a few changes to the A-6, the mig-29, the Draken WDNS the ANZAC F-18 and raise the cost of the tornado and Mirage slightly. Given that the French air-force suffers from a rather limited range of choices, I'm happy to keep the Mirage F1M more cost effective than average to improve the overall strength of the french deck.

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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby PerkingKimchiman » Sun 3 Apr 2016 10:53

Balance issues:
ROK F-16C PB still has unaltered price, and needs some price buff.
ROK K263 has 0/8/6/0/0 availability, but better K30 Biho has 0/10/8/0/0 availability.
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ROK K-SAM should have 8 missiles.
US Heavy Riflemen's 0/12/8/6/0 availability is too small for line infantry.
US LAV-25 FSV overpriced.
US CH-47 transport overpriced.
FRG Leo 1A5 is underpriced when compared to gun carriers and gen 1/2 MBTs. (ex) Stryker MGS, M8 AGS, M28A5 WRSA, Type 74E)
FRG Bo105P/BSH underpriced.
FRG Wiesel 2 overpriced. It costs additional 10p than Wiesel 1 Mk20 while having same stat.
DPRK VTT-323 lineup is overpriced.
DPRK B-5 overpriced.
Some Commonwealth regular/militia infantries have L129A1 as their rifle. (ex) Anglian Regiment, UK/ANZAC Javelin ATGM, Territorials(!))

Suggestions:
I've gone through some skirmishes recently, and found out that ROK severely lacks in REC tab.
It has good recon infantry, but no EXCEPTIONAL sight unit.
Moreover, its only recon shopper is OH-6 with GOOD sight and no armnament.
So, I suggest adding Bo105 to ROK REC tab.
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Re: Ash & Shadows mod Balance discussion Thread

Postby Spectre_nz » Sun 3 Apr 2016 16:35

Some Commonwealth regular/militia infantries have L129A1 as their rifle. (ex) Anglian Regiment, UK/ANZAC Javelin ATGM, Territorials(!))


Yeah, I know about this one. It's just easier that way.

US Heavy Riflemen's 0/12/8/6/0 availability is too small for line infantry.


I've deliberately limited their per-card availability since they're 15 point [H.I]. There are still three cards of them. Where practical, I've been making US infantry fewer in number, but with better quality equipment.

The ROK recon chopper is going to end up as a Fennec, probably. The Existing Bo's don't have the armament on their models to display correctly in game as either gun armed or FFAR armed.

I'll look at rolling in several of your other suggestions with the next balance update.

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