[MOD] Wargame: 1991

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molnibalage
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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Mon 16 Jul 2018 21:10

I downloaded and I found very inconsistent the whole mod.

The MOD is usable only with REDs DLC because units were moved. I do not understand why DLC unit were moved insted core units where most of the deleted.

The base variant of USSR system always were used in very limited qty, we can say they were LRIP product. Thefore has no senese and never was the variants before M or M1 shuch as 2K22 and 9K330 their M or M1 variant eneterd into large scale mass production.

It never was mentioned (as I see) the MOD is optimized only to A cat games. IOC-s are 100% bad. Only problem it makes pointless to put older units especially with their minor cost and capability differences for ex. between two 2K12 Kub variants.

I have seen lots of illogical changes. Now USA has tons of AGM platfroms while has 0 iron bomber. F-111s are gone, etc.

The list of my observations is very long...
I would rather see general conceptional changes based on RL data. Lowere tank gun ACC, 5HE for all SR IR AAM, standardized turn rates and speed etc.

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby Razzmann » Mon 16 Jul 2018 22:10

molnibalage wrote:It never was mentioned (as I see) the MOD is optimized only to A cat games.

At the very start it says :
WARGAME 1991 is an extensive modification of Red Dragon that updates each nation’s arsenal to their 1991 capabilities.



molnibalage wrote:Now USA has tons of AGM platfroms while has 0 iron bomber.


There are a total of 4 US planes that have iron bombs:
https://i.imgur.com/XqaMf76.png
https://i.imgur.com/TUwOQi6.png
https://i.imgur.com/2Z0lmml.png
https://i.imgur.com/JGhBaBC.png

(Unless you specifically meant US F-111s with iron bombs).

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Mon 16 Jul 2018 22:33

Razzmann wrote:
molnibalage wrote:It never was mentioned (as I see) the MOD is optimized only to A cat games.

At the very start it says :
WARGAME 1991 is an extensive modification of Red Dragon that updates each nation’s arsenal to their 1991 capabilities.

But it does not say delete the old ones...

molnibalage wrote:Now USA has tons of AGM platfroms while has 0 iron bomber.


There are a total of 4 US planes that have iron bombs:
https://i.imgur.com/XqaMf76.png
https://i.imgur.com/TUwOQi6.png
https://i.imgur.com/2Z0lmml.png
https://i.imgur.com/JGhBaBC.png

(Unless you specifically meant US F-111s with iron bombs).

Tomcat and F-4 is useless because MK-82 are to small to have real impact with 6 pcs, it is just a napalm bomber.
F-14 with 4xMk-83 is lame firepower as the GER Tornado has while the UK Tornado now has 8x bombs as should be.
A-7 has 4xbig boy only problem in Cat A F-15E is a better platfrom which in now CBU truck and still does not have 50% ECM.

While USSR has the Su-24 with nukes. What a fair trade...
Su-25T is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond 1991... USA does

Also is quite strange to see that one of US F-16 can have 4xAIM-9 but the other just two.

30% ECM F-18C is quite strange while similar era USAF jets can have 40% ECM.

Why is Vietnam era F-4J in the game in 1991 is the goal? In 1991 AIM-7E-2 was not used for 15+ years...

SR IR AAMs many times have only 4HE and only 2x on airplanes = 100% pointless to give them because even with two hits you need crit to kill. Alway made very huge inbalane the 4 vs 5 HE.

And so on...

These are perfect indication is lack of stadradization. If we MOD someting why is not done with a standardized logical way rather random ideas? Because what I see is random ideas without lack of balance.

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Mon 16 Jul 2018 22:34

WARGAME 1991 is an extensive modification of Red Dragon that updates each nation’s arsenal to their 1991 capabilities.

But it does not say delete the old ones...


There are a total of 4 US planes that have iron bombs:
https://i.imgur.com/XqaMf76.png
https://i.imgur.com/TUwOQi6.png
https://i.imgur.com/2Z0lmml.png
https://i.imgur.com/JGhBaBC.png

(Unless you specifically meant US F-111s with iron bombs).


Tomcat and F-4 is useless because MK-82 are to small to have real impact with 6 pcs, it is just a napalm bomber.
F-14 with 4xMk-83 is lame firepower as the GER Tornado has while the UK Tornado now has 8x bombs as should be.
A-7 has 4xbig boy only problem in Cat A F-15E is a better platfrom which in now CBU truck and still does not have 50% ECM.

While USSR has the Su-24 with nukes. What a fair trade...
Su-25T is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond 1991... USA does

Also is quite strange to see that one of US F-16 can have 4xAIM-9 but the other just two.

30% ECM F-18C is quite strange while similar era USAF jets can have 40% ECM.

Why is Vietnam era F-4J in the game in 1991 is the goal? In 1991 AIM-7E-2 was not used for 15+ years not the missiles the plane itself too while the main LGB platfrom of the USAF the F-111F is missing. F-111F was the main first line PGM platfrom of the USAF and is kicked out from the DB while a Vietnam era garbage remained. I do not understand this...

F-4G in 1991 usead almost exclusively AGM-88. Yes, it is redundant the weapon with EA-6B but this is real. Because of few units spec. deck has almost no sense therfore...

The LGB capable F-16C as combat ready widely used platform is post 1991. During ODS F-15E got LANTRN but only every 4th could got 1 as I can remember so buddy lasing had to be used.

SR IR AAMs many times have only 4HE and only 2x on airplanes = 100% pointless to give them because even with two hits you need crit to kill. Alway made very huge inbalane the 4 vs 5 HE.

Respect the RL widespread usage 1991. Are lots of not accurate thing considering this in DB. Both 2K22M and Tor-M1 post Cold War systems while Patriot was widely used in USA. The currently set DB is very, very far from real and these are still unicorn units.

And so on...

These are perfect indication is lack of stadradization. If we MOD someting why is not done with a standardized logical way rather random ideas? Because what I see is random ideas without lack of balance.

Is the mod different from base game? Yes. Is more accurate or balanced? Sadly only slighty or not at all.
Last edited by molnibalage on Mon 16 Jul 2018 22:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby FrangibleCover » Mon 16 Jul 2018 23:13

molnibalage wrote:
FrangibleCover wrote:It's a stated capability of the M1 variant of the system. At the moment we're seeing how it plays in game.

Giving ant-LGB is pointless because in RL it could down only 1 missile with 1 target but in WG all LGBs are dropped so if it does not have area effect it is just waste of missiles. It should have anti-ARM capability rather anti-LGB.

It's not pointless, due to the HP system. Two 2000lb LGBs can kill any tank in the game. One 2000lb LGB is survivable. One 2000lb LGB also has decent odds of missing. If the Tor can kill a single LGB then it can successfully protect the forces it's supporting in some circumstances.

You misunderstand. Keres is an Israeli developed ground-launched Standard ARM carrier. It fires ARMs at things. Currently it's not very good IMO, but it's quite interesting.

Ok, but what shout range? The eng. range in RL with 0 speed and 0 m alt is much less than from AC at med alt with M0.8. About 2800 meter would be real. You cannot go so close in many cases to any radar SAM.

Yes, the range is poor. I did say it's not very good.

There's not much we can do about this with modding, sadly, but you can still follow the tracers back on the map to see where artillery is firing from, which I've always suspected to be a deliberate counterbattery mechanic.

Can you increase somehow the tracer time length to 30-40 sec? Because current mechanic make just a reflex and gambling the counter arty. If you do not see the fire itself the counterbattery happens way too late.

I don't believe we can, but then I've never had any particular issues with doing counterbattery work when I've needed to and you've been playing longer than I have.

The difference is that base Kub was still in widespread service in 1991 and base HAWK was not. The newer Kub M3 is more comparable to modern HAWKs.

In 1991 all Kub was updated to M3 level in WPACT which could do even lock after launch with optical tracking the leading and launch was possible and only in terminal phase was neccessary the CW illumination.

Our sources said that some were at M3 standard and others were still at M1. I imagine you've better sources than we do though.

F-14A+/B/D received special avionics including a fairly modern bombing computer. They wouldn't have added this to the aircraft if they didn't expect to use it at some point. There's otherwise not much point in having both, the F-14A is a perfectly acceptable fighter, so the Bombcats are Bombing.

Both F-15A and F-15C had AG modes on the same level as dedicated strike A-7E and USAF never used in AG role. F-14A also could use bomb but followed the same approach. It was too expensive to risk in AG strike the best BARCAP fleet defender platfrom which also had ASF role.

As ST21 mentioned, they absolutely were used in the role in the little wars of the 1990s. I don't feel like it would have been a common mission, certainly, but it's an interesting addition to the game.

Join the Discord! At the moment we've got multiple games running every European Night.

Discord is some kind of chat SW? How can I find WG players?

Yes, Discord is somewhat similar to Skype or Teamspeak or perhaps IRC. It's easy to sign up, the link in the original post allows you to join our server and we have a system for finding players who are looking for a game on there.

molnibalage wrote:I downloaded and I found very inconsistent the whole mod.

The MOD is usable only with REDs DLC because units were moved. I do not understand why DLC unit were moved insted core units where most of the deleted.

Yes, we are sorry about that. We needed to use the models from the DLC units for maximum possible accuracy and there's a concern that if we don't keep them as DLC content it could expose us to legal repercussions. It shouldn't render any faction unplayable though, honestly I don't remember any reroled DLC unit which I'd consider to be a core capability.

The base variant of USSR system always were used in very limited qty, we can say they were LRIP product. Thefore has no senese and never was the variants before M or M1 shuch as 2K22 and 9K330 their M or M1 variant eneterd into large scale mass production.

I see. I'll check up with BTR on how they were operated.

It never was mentioned (as I see) the MOD is optimized only to A cat games. IOC-s are 100% bad. Only problem it makes pointless to put older units especially with their minor cost and capability differences for ex. between two 2K12 Kub variants.

IOCs have been changed inconsistently, it's a lot of work for our modders to write "1991" 1500 times. Just ignore them, category gameplay is gone as a core concept of the mod. Minor cost and capability differences are something that's always difficult to deal with, no change from vanilla here.

I have seen lots of illogical changes. Now USA has tons of AGM platfroms while has 0 iron bomber. F-111s are gone, etc.

US has 4 AGM platforms, 2 iron bombers, 2 iron multiroles and 2 LGB platforms. I genuinely don't know what you mean, if anything they're a little short on clusters. The F-111s have taken a small holiday and will be back in the US air tab soon.

The list of my observations is very long...
I would rather see general conceptional changes based on RL data

That's part of what we've been doing.

Lowere tank gun ACC

It's gone up overall, mostly as a function of fairer treatment for later Soviet fire control equipment and the phasing out of a lot of crappy old tanks. I don't see what lower tank accuracy would achieve other than prolonging tank engagements and encouraging the use of I Win Button AGM planes even further.

5HE for all SR IR AAM

Partially done, they're not all getting it. The R-60 was infamous for its low payload and shouldn't have the same HE value as the AIM-9M. Besides, with the removal of the vast majority of AMRAAMs and all R-77s the 6HE BVR missile is relatively more common and with the removal of the 10HP Hind the 5HE SRAAM is less critical than it would be in vanilla. It's still very important for the AIM-9L and PL-8 though, since some nations rely entirely on them for interceptors.

standardized turn rates and speed etc.

Again, partially done.

molnibalage wrote:
WARGAME 1991 is an extensive modification of Red Dragon that updates each nation’s arsenal to their 1991 capabilities.

But it does not say delete the old ones...

Nevertheless...

There are a total of 4 US planes that have iron bombs:
https://i.imgur.com/XqaMf76.png
https://i.imgur.com/TUwOQi6.png
https://i.imgur.com/2Z0lmml.png
https://i.imgur.com/JGhBaBC.png

(Unless you specifically meant US F-111s with iron bombs).


Tomcat and F-4 is useless because MK-82 are to small to have real impact with 6 pcs, it is just a napalm bomber.
F-14 with 4xMk-83 is lame firepower as the GER Tornado has while the UK Tornado now has 8x bombs as should be.
A-7 has 4xbig boy only problem in Cat A F-15E is a better platfrom which in now CBU truck and still does not have 50% ECM.

While USSR has the Su-24 with nukes. What a fair trade...

The fact that you think they aren't good doesn't make them not iron bombers.

Su-25T is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond 1991... USA does

Actually it's waaay within timeframe. IIRC every single Su-25T ever constructed was built before or during 1991 due to the factory being in Tbilisi. They're quite rare, no doubt, but not non existent.

Also is quite strange to see that one of US F-16 can have 4xAIM-9 but the other just two.

Some loadouts don't fill all the pylons.

30% ECM F-18C is quite strange while similar era USAF jets can have 40% ECM.

I'll look into it, that change will have been made for a good reason but I can't remember for the life of me what it is right now!

Why is Vietnam era F-4J in the game in 1991 is the goal? In 1991 AIM-7E-2 was not used for 15+ years not the missiles the plane itself too

Honest answer? We forgot to remove it from the armory. It'll get sorted, it's not high priority right now but probably within the next few weeks.

while the main LGB platfrom of the USAF the F-111F is missing. F-111F was the main first line PGM platfrom of the USAF and is kicked out from the DB while a Vietnam era garbage remained. I do not understand this...

The LGB capable F-16C as combat ready widely used platform is post 1991. During ODS F-15E got LANTRN but only every 4th could got 1 as I can remember so buddy lasing had to be used.

Entirely my mistake with the F-111 being used for CAS as well as interdiction, sorry. I'm aware, I'm sorting it out. The 111F will probably come back to replace the CG and the CG will probably get another role, because I really like having large numbers of useful American F-16s. LANTIRN on the CG was a necessary sacrifice, since the F-15E can do more interesting things than simply PGM trucking.

F-4G in 1991 usead almost exclusively AGM-88. Yes, it is redundant the weapon with EA-6B but this is real. Because of few units spec. deck has almost no sense therfore...

Almost exclusively. They still had a few Shrikes to throw around in ODS.

SR IR AAMs many times have only 4HE and only 2x on airplanes = 100% pointless to give them because even with two hits you need crit to kill. Alway made very huge inbalane the 4 vs 5 HE.

2x 4HE makes a difference when almost all helicopters are 8HP or under. Additionally aircraft guns have been switched around thoroughly and most should now be able to chip off a couple of HP to secure the kill if required.

Respect the RL widespread usage 1991. Are lots of not accurate thing considering this in DB. Both 2K22M and Tor-M1 post Cold War systems while Patriot was widely used in USA. The currently set DB is very, very far from real and these are still unicorn units.

Tunguska M and Tor M1 were both in serial production and combat service in 1991, I don't know what you mean. Patriot is out because it's too long ranged a system to fit in the game properly, just like S-300.

Is the mod different from base game? Yes. Is more accurate or balanced? Sadly only slighty or not at all.

You really don't think that this is better than the primary American LGB CAS platform being the F-117 and Canada's best tank being a wooden model?
What if Wargame stuck to timeframe?
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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Tue 17 Jul 2018 00:10

FrangibleCover wrote:It's not pointless, due to the HP system. Two 2000lb LGBs can kill any tank in the game. One 2000lb LGB is survivable. One 2000lb LGB also has decent odds of missing. If the Tor can kill a single LGB then it can successfully protect the forces it's supporting in some circumstances.

RGR.

Yes, the range is poor. I did say it's not very good.

RGR

Our sources said that some were at M3 standard and others were still at M1. I imagine you've better sources than we do though.

In WPACT 5 year overhaul cycle was the typcal. During overhaulg got the upgrades the SAMs.

As ST21 mentioned, they absolutely were used in the role in the little wars of the 1990s. I don't feel like it would have been a common mission, certainly, but it's an interesting addition to the game.

Ok, but here comes again. The game should model very rare cases or general capabilies and usage?

Yes, Discord is somewhat similar to Skype or Teamspeak or perhaps IRC. It's easy to sign up, the link in the original post allows you to join our server and we have a system for finding players who are looking for a game on there.

THX.

I see. I'll check up with BTR on how they were operated.

Where...? Buk-M1 reached real IOC, the first full brigade was deployed in Hungary in 1987. Not even East Germany was a single 2K22M or Tor-M1 until the collapse of WPACT.

(The base Buk, Buk-1 were not independent untis they were assigned to 2K12 batteries but skipped this approach with M1.)
IOCs have been changed inconsistently, it's a lot of work for our modders to write "1991" 1500 times. Just ignore them, category gameplay is gone as a core concept of the mod. Minor cost and capability differences are something that's always difficult to deal with, no change from vanilla here.

RGR

US has 4 AGM platforms, 2 iron bombers, 2 iron multiroles and 2 LGB platforms. I genuinely don't know what you mean, if anything they're a little short on clusters. The F-111s have taken a small holiday and will be back in the US air tab soon.

Yes, but CBUs maybe needs AP buff.

That's part of what we've been doing.

RGR


It's gone up overall, mostly as a function of fairer treatment for later Soviet fire control equipment and the phasing out of a lot of crappy old tanks. I don't see what lower tank accuracy would achieve other than prolonging tank engagements and encouraging the use of I Win Button AGM planes even further.

Currently ATGMs does not have the ACC advantage at long range what in RL have. The base ACC values are simply too high in RL above 2 km moving tanks at moving targets shoots almost with random low chance. The WG:RD simply does not represents this. ALB values were much closer to reality.

Partially done, they're not all getting it. The R-60 was infamous for its low payload and shouldn't have the same HE value as the AIM-9M. Besides, with the removal of the vast majority of AMRAAMs and all R-77s the 6HE BVR missile is relatively more common and with the removal of the 10HP Hind the 5HE SRAAM is less critical than it would be in vanilla. It's still very important for the AIM-9L and PL-8 though, since some nations rely entirely on them for interceptors.

4HE SR IR AAM is acceptable as long as used with 6HE SARH. The problem is many aircraft has only 4HE AAM and only a very few ---> Nobody ever will use them.

Actually it's waaay within timeframe. IIRC every single Su-25T ever constructed was built before or during 1991 due to the factory being in Tbilisi. They're quite rare, no doubt, but not non existent.

Show me any Su-25T at regular squadrons in 1991. Similar to Tor-M1 and 2K22M you can't find any.


Some loadouts don't fill all the pylons.

To me visual representation is not important this is not a HC flight sim.

I'll look into it, that change will have been made for a good reason but I can't remember for the life of me what it is right now!

RGR

Honest answer? We forgot to remove it from the armory. It'll get sorted, it's not high priority right now but probably within the next few weeks.

It can be converted to F-111F with two GBU-24s.

Entirely my mistake with the F-111 being used for CAS as well as interdiction, sorry. I'm aware, I'm sorting it out. The 111F will probably come back to replace the CG and the CG will probably get another role, because I really like having large numbers of useful American F-16s. LANTIRN on the CG was a necessary sacrifice, since the F-15E can do more interesting things than simply PGM trucking.

RGR

Almost exclusively. They still had a few Shrikes to throw around in ODS.

As above general and typical cases or minority cases are modeled?

2x 4HE makes a difference when almost all helicopters are 8HP or under. Additionally aircraft guns have been switched around thoroughly and most should now be able to chip off a couple of HP to secure the kill if required.

RGR I did not checked Mi-24HP.

Tunguska M and Tor M1 were both in serial production and combat service in 1991, I don't know what you mean.

Nope, they were not. Or show me the images and list of regimens where they were. Also the qty is factor. Just because for ex. a single regiment existed I would not allow to have it. Following this idea you should allow AIM-120 capable F-15E because they were capable in post ODS era in 1991...

Su-27S with R-27ER is also fantasy. The mass production of R-27ER was after 1991. The typical Cold War Su-27S had R-73 and R-27R and the latter had inferior kinematic range comparing to AIM-7F/M and not superior.

Patriot is out because it's too long ranged a system to fit in the game properly, just like S-300.

While you give fantasy SAMs for USSR... The only double digit RAD army air SAM in end of Cold War was the Buk-M1 and a 1+1 S-300V which is not in game. Main problem the missing 2K11 Krug...

You really don't think that this is better than the primary American LGB CAS platform being the F-117 and Canada's best tank being a wooden model?

I'm not sure what this means. F-117 is eradicated while it was not a fantasy unit in 1991...
And FRA has paper/wooden armor tanks. FRA literally does not have tanks as was in RL. AMX-30 was totally outdated in 1991 just as T-55A..

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Tue 17 Jul 2018 00:12

Can you make range dependent the tube arty dispersion?

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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby Markenzwieback » Tue 17 Jul 2018 10:13

molnibalage wrote:Can you make range dependent the tube arty dispersion?

If there is one thing you don't have to worry about in this mod, its tube arty effectiveness of even the lower priced variants. :twisted:
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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby Bougnas » Tue 17 Jul 2018 10:51

Weren't there even Tor-M1/Tung-M units in USSR at least? After all T-72B and T-80U weren't deployed in East-Germany or Hungary either.
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Re: [MOD] Wargame: 1991

Postby molnibalage » Tue 17 Jul 2018 11:51

Bougnas wrote:Weren't there even Tor-M1/Tung-M units in USSR at least? After all T-72B and T-80U weren't deployed in East-Germany or Hungary either.

The new Soviet equipment almost all cases appeared first in East Germany. It has no sense "in USSR" term for army air defence and other land vehicles. In fact the second and third echelon units with old crap stuff were stationed farther from NATO border so anything new never was stationed in USSR for the army. The PVO, the Homeland Air Defence is a totally different thing with MiG-31 and S-300P family.
The first and only S-300V brigade also appeared in East Germany.

This is why was surprising the appearance of Buk-M1 in Hungary with new MiG-29s, until the mid/late '80s Soviet units in HUN got later the new equipment comparing to units in East Germany.

About Soviet units in Hungary.
Land units from page 69, air units from page 90.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/bryzbde5d5i0xpf/1989.pdf

In Hungary was no T-80 or T-72B only T-72M but was quite advanced T-64 variants.

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