REQ: Infantry Squad system

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Cryotech
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Cryotech » Tue 19 May 2015 04:02

Rushattack wrote:No to squads. Theres been so many games where squads have failed. there just blobs that run across the battlefield. I love the single units like cnc zero hour and sc 2. Men of war and coh 2 has squads and Im not a fan.


I don't believe this is what people are asking for. Basically, we just want an easier way of managing complex groups of units.
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Tropico79 » Tue 19 May 2015 04:08

Rushattack wrote:No to squads. Theres been so many games where squads have failed. there just blobs that run across the battlefield. I love the single units like cnc zero hour and sc 2. Men of war and coh 2 has squads and Im not a fan.


sigh... learn to read other people's post /facepalm

it's not a pure traditional squad system like many other games mind you.
look here, she explained well what the system is:

viewtopic.php?f=194&t=52575#p827861

next time please actually read and other people's post and understand we're all saying before posting.

and keep your opinion to yourself please, squad is a true evolution to rts mechanics, which is why c&c3 and generals 2 all have them.
hell even the original generals have squad mechanics in, how can anyone forget about the angry mobs?

understand this custom squad is nothing like the examples you provided, and I don't see how they have failed?
also men of war doesn't have squads, it's all single units if you actually played it.

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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Rushattack » Tue 19 May 2015 05:11

Tropico79 wrote:
Rushattack wrote:No to squads. Theres been so many games where squads have failed. there just blobs that run across the battlefield. I love the single units like cnc zero hour and sc 2. Men of war and coh 2 has squads and Im not a fan.


sigh... learn to read other people's post /facepalm

it's not a pure traditional squad system like many other games mind you.
look here, she explained well what the system is:

viewtopic.php?f=194&t=52575#p827861

next time please actually read and other people's post and understand we're all saying before posting.

and keep your opinion to yourself please, squad is a true evolution to rts mechanics, which is why c&c3 and generals 2 all have them.
hell even the original generals have squad mechanics in, how can anyone forget about the angry mobs?

understand this custom squad is nothing like the examples you provided, and I don't see how they have failed?
also men of war doesn't have squads, it's all single units if you actually played it.


Its a closed beta. Everyone is entitled to a opinion. No opinion is right or wrong. From the start the developers said no squads. @Tropico79 squad is a true evolution to rts mechanics. Some of the greatest RTS games ever made used single units. Cnc games , starcraft games, ruse, warhammer, dawn of war, and age of empires. I cant even think of one other good RTS game that used squads besides coh ( which has no basebuilding thus squads works and has a different play style). I think you didnt read my answer. I would not be in favor of any squads. That means squads already made from the barracks or squads made in the battlefield. This isnt bf4. This is a open forum. Dont be telling people to keep there opinions . Its a community with open ideas. Just because somebody doesnt have the same opinion as you , you shouldnt get all upset about it. Ive been following this game a long long time. Eugene has alot of things in place to make this game great. Single unit infantry with secondary abilities that can capture pows, garrison buildings, and get loaded in vehicles and helicoptors for mobile transportation. If infantry speed is slightly increased individual infantry will become alot more usable. ( slightly)

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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Cryotech » Tue 19 May 2015 05:18

Alright everyone, let's calm down a bit. Nobody should be attacking anyone else's opinions, surely. However, I feel you're being a bit close minded, Rushattack. Nobody is pushing, as far as I can tell, for this to be a squad management game. This is, instead, exactly the same thing as using CTRL + (0-9) to form a group of units, mechanically. You can select all the grouped units with one key afterwards. What we're suggesting, instead of using CTRL + (0-9), is hitting a different button to group the units exactly the same way, but without the hotkey to select them afterwards. You'd just click a unit in the "group" at this point to select them all.

I don't really see why this is so controversial, as it is objectively speaking strictly beneficial. All this would do is, in essence, expand the total possible amount of unit groupings inherent in the CTRL + (0-9) system, just a with a bit more fluidity and make them easier to manage as a whole.

It would be interesting to see this implemented as a way to purchase said grouping, too, though- kind of like what Supreme Commander did with building groupings, but with units instead.
Last edited by Cryotech on Tue 19 May 2015 18:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby trineroks » Tue 19 May 2015 05:42

DragonNOR wrote:Any form of squad system is better than none at all, so yeah support the idea!!!

@trineroks
Think you are confusing between the mechanics, the custom squad system here works NOTHING like in COH and MOW.

There's no retreating option for inf, and not much point in reinforcing existing squad to the point of COH, since every
single inf cost exact the same here, unlike COH where reinforced soldiers are cheaper than new ones. In here, you can
just form new squads which is easy and simple, so it's different from COH, you also can't unform squads.
I'm not confusing the mechanic, I'm just saying I'd love to see a squad system like in C&C3, where the squad is treated like a single unit but damage output is dependent on the number of men in the squad.

I realize Sandy's pushing for a modular squad system using the group mechanic in Wargame, but I'd rather just see a simple squad system.
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Cryotech » Tue 19 May 2015 05:46

trineroks wrote:I'm not confusing the mechanic, I'm just saying I'd love to see a squad system like in C&C3, where the squad is treated like a single unit but damage output is dependent on the number of men in the squad.


Frankly, this is what I would not like to see. It detracts from the infantry fighting gameplay, and is a cheap way to achieve pseudo large-scale battles. It's fun to watch, surely, but I personally dislike the gameplay inherent with that type of mechanic.

Besides, if you want it to be simple, why not just create groups of 6 marines, or something like that?
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Tropico79 » Tue 19 May 2015 07:05

Alright first thing first Rushattack, you need to chill the hell out, I didn't meant to offend you in any way.

Its a closed beta. Everyone is entitled to a opinion. No opinion is right or wrong.

What I meant by keep your opinion to yourself is simply in response to this statement of yours:
"Theres been so many games where squads have failed. there just blobs that run across the battlefield."
Blobbing is much worse in single infantry rts, just look at starcraft 2 and see how all the marines always
blob into single small circle, AOA should not be this kind of arcady rts. At least with squad infantries keep
their spacing with each other. So in my opinion this statement of yours is invalid and that's why I said it.

Again I didn't say you cannot post your opinions here, you're certainly entitle to, you just misinterpreted
my message. The others, myself included are certainly entitled to post ours as well. :)

squad is a true evolution to rts mechanics. Some of the greatest RTS games ever made used single units. Cnc games , starcraft games, ruse, warhammer, dawn of war, and age of empires.

Eh really? You just listed out several rts that are made great that uses squad system. ruse uses squad,
warhammer uses squad, dawn of war basically pioneered squad system, some C&C games uses squad too
(C&C3, Generals 2, even the original Generals with angry mobs)

I'm seriously wondering if you've actually played any of those RTS games to make such an "obviously true"
statement like this...

I cant even think of one other good RTS game that used squads besides coh ( which has no basebuilding thus squads works and has a different play style).

You really can't? I mean you just listed out several yourself lmao. And what what's with this "coh has no
basebuilding thus squads works", what pot have you been smoking, have you seriously even played coh?
Last I checked I still need to build a barrack to purchase infantries in that game... :roll:

And what does having base building or not have anything to do with this? Dawn of War have base building
and I'm sure that game certainly works...

I think you didnt read my answer. I would not be in favor of any squads. That means squads already made from the barracks or squads made in the battlefield.

I certainly read your answer, why are you being so selfish and only think for yourself, when you are not even
affected by this since you can still play with your single soldier as before. But for the plenty of other peoples
supporting this idea, this means they can at least have the game playable at an acceptable level of micro.

Eugen is not making a game to suit YOUR specific taste, remember this. Like Cryotech is saying, you're just
being too close minded.

They're making a game suited to the vast majority of their community, something which their fans support.
Which is why they're having a beta to receive feedbacks and advice from their community.

Dont be telling people to keep there opinions . Its a community with open ideas. Just because somebody doesnt have the same opinion as you , you shouldnt get all upset about it.

Good that's well said actually, just hope you can understand this yourself, since it applies really well to what
you're currently doing.

This isnt bf4. This is a open forum.

Dafuq? Who said this is bf4, that isn't even the same genre...

Ive been following this game a long long time. Eugene has alot of things in place to make this game great.

A long long time like last August when it was first announced? So have I actually.
And it's EUGEN not Eugene, it's not a name...

Single unit infantry with secondary abilities that can capture pows, garrison buildings, and get loaded in vehicles and helicoptors for mobile transportation.

The same thing that can be done with the custom squad system, and much easier to do actually.

And that's about it, ohh next time try dividing your post into paragraphs, that big blob you've written is just
painful to read. (Again opinions so don't get mad)

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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby trineroks » Tue 19 May 2015 11:59

Cryotech wrote:Besides, if you want it to be simple, why not just create groups of 6 marines, or something like that?
No, because that's not the same thing.

With set squad numbers you can do some neat balance tricks - make a stronger higher tier infantry unit have lower squad member counts whereas weaker lower tier infantry have larger squad member counts. Think something like the C&C3 Nod militants (8 excluding the Confessor Cabal upgrade) and the rocket militants (2 excluding Cabal).

You get a more expensive infantry unit for antitank, but they are fragile because they have low numbers. Similarly, you could have it such that a marine comes in a 4 or 5 man squad (higher overall squad health) but lacking in the anti tank department, whereas the Javelins would come in a 2 man squad (lower overall squad health) but be excellent vs. tanks. It would at least give the tier 1 marines some utility even in the mid and late game as a meat shield. Combine that with the issue that you can only queue up to 10 units max per production structure. No one wants to dedicate an entire training queue to train individual marines to form a large blob.

Although I'd personally love to see a cheap antitank launcher upgrade for marines in DEFCON 2 as well.
Last edited by trineroks on Tue 19 May 2015 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Sandy » Tue 19 May 2015 11:59

Hey guys,

Thank you all very much for your feedbacks, and also to each and every one of you for your support of the idea. Really appreciate this! Now to get back to the responses:


@TG92929
Thank you, although don't think we need it to be as complicated to the point of having new infantry types. Since the current units are enough for the roles they perform, whether it's anti-inf, anti-tank, or anti-air. Although I agree with you it's sad seeing all marines wielding M249 after an upgrade.

@Kvantovy
Thanks and yeah I agree with your points, what you've said is spot on! Although don't think we need it as complicated with having auto-adjusted squad size. Since it's harder to implement and may be prone to accidents, such as players just wishing to board his/her infantries into vehicles but accidentally created a new squad in the process cos there's not enough slots, then the squads all need to be reformed again.

In my opinion though, a simple lock/unlock button for squad creation would suffice, simple to use by the players and simple to implement by the devs.

@Thomas191
Haha yeah! Hard to find people nowadays who have played these classics, although I'm fine with its sequels, but not the 3rd one which is a clash of clans-like mmo. Company of Heroes is alright as well, just different and made for a newer audience. Thanks for your comments!

@trineroks
Appreciate your feedback matie, but the system is not similar to COH/MOW nor WG like others have pointed out. The thing is, Matt have already stated there won't be a pure squad mechanic like other games.

They won't be reworking the mechanic like it's in C&C3 (yes it's a good and simple system, I agree). Mainly due to the transport and garrison system already present. (we have vehicles that only have 4 slots like humvee and little bird, and most in game buildings are just 4-6 slots)

However what I'm proposing is not a complete reworking of the existing system, but rather an addition that can be had on top to improve the gameplay. So you can take advantage of this and use it to create your own squads in game, it can be exactly like you have laid it out, 4 soldiers for rifle squad, 2 soldiers for missile squad etc.

They can be built this way as well so there's not much work involved in forming the squads. And the best part is this system is entirely optional so only those who chooses can use it. This is the only way which a squad system can be implemented in game for Act of Aggression (even though it's only a semi one at heart). Hope you can understand this.

@DragonNOR
Thanks for helping me explaining this system and also thank you for your support, appreciate it!

@Cryotech
Thanks for all your responses Cryo! Although this system is not exactly similar to the Ctrl grouping since there are still some major differences. Mainly in the sense that it's more hardlocked and enforced. Locked squad should basically act together as a single entity, they cannot be separated unlike Ctrl groups unless the player chooses to, or til death do them part.

For example they should not be able to get separated when the squad enters a half full building, so some members are garrisoned inside while others remain outside. Whether it's everyone getting inside or all remain outside, this is to make the system as simple to implement and as easy to use as possible.

Also this is a system which specifically applies to infantries, only soldiers can be grouped this way into squads. Unlike Ctrl group which applies to everything even buildings. So these two systems are different. A few others are suggesting for formations for infantries as well, to make them look better visually.

Although I don't see how it's too controversial in giving feedbacks and suggestions on ways to possibly alleviate issues that players encountered while testing out the beta. This is a game which the current playerbase may end up buying and play for a long time afterall.

So wouldn't it be ideal for good suggestions from the beta test to be considered and even possibly implemented into the game. Especially since many others are expressing similar opinions as well in this thread, on their concerns to reduce unnecessary micro and streamline unit selections. General feedbacks on the advantages of custom squad system etc. and even voicing other suggestions on top of this as well.

Therefore I wouldn't really worry about the devs not listening in to constructive feedbacks from its player base, especially since this is Eugen we're talking about. They are one of the few good developers left for RTS who really listens well to thoughts, opinions and criticisms from their community.


Anyway thank you everyone for your responses again, really nice to hear all these supportive posts. But please let's ensure we can act mature and keep things civil here.

Cheers!
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Re: REQ: Infantry Squad system

Postby Kozzmozz » Tue 19 May 2015 16:41

Agreed completely!

It would even counter the "blob" of units vs the "blob" of enemies people are afraid of and give more tactical options, also for people that arent accustomed to micromanagement.
And add aswell the option of homogenic movement for that team so they move as a team too!

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