Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

jimieus
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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby jimieus » Mon 18 May 2015 09:52

Just out of curiosity - for those so adamantly against having increased zoom/pan/tilt:

What is stopping you adopting a "classic rts" style closed-set view with a free camera? What exactly is your problem with the suggestion in this regard?

One option rules out a large section of the userbase whilst the other caters to all.

So what is the problem with a free cam and how would it adversely effect you? Genuinely interested.

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AwesomeLion
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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby AwesomeLion » Mon 18 May 2015 10:00

jimieus wrote:Just out of curiosity - for those so adamantly against having increased zoom/pan/tilt:

What is stopping you adopting a "classic rts" style closed-set view with a free camera? What exactly is your problem with the suggestion in this regard?

One option rules out a large section of the userbase whilst the other caters to all.

So what is the problem with a free cam and how would it adversely effect you? Genuinely interested.


It's the added work required for the developers side of things, the taxing on machinery and the potential advantage or disadvantage it could pertain for PvP matches.

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby jimieus » Mon 18 May 2015 10:15

AwesomeLion wrote:It's the added work required for the developers side of things, the taxing on machinery and thepotential advantage or disadvantage it could pertain for PvP matches.


Such as? Very keen to hear the answer to this.

As for 'added work' and 'taxing on machinery' - we honestly don't know that - I dont actually agree with that assessment from a dev perspective anyway - the game has clearly been developed in 3D and we all know what iriszoom is capable of, there are even LOD's already in the game which suggests some level of degradation already exists. This is absolutely a possibility. :?: :?:

So it really comes down to this perceived advantage/disadvantage - I am curious to know what that is considering we would all have the same view settings.

Care to elaborate?

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby AwesomeLion » Mon 18 May 2015 11:43

jimieus wrote:
AwesomeLion wrote:It's the added work required for the developers side of things, the taxing on machinery and thepotential advantage or disadvantage it could pertain for PvP matches.


Such as? Very keen to hear the answer to this.

As for 'added work' and 'taxing on machinery' - we honestly don't know that - I dont actually agree with that assessment from a dev perspective anyway - the game has clearly been developed in 3D and we all know what iriszoom is capable of, there are even LOD's already in the game which suggests some level of degradation already exists. This is absolutely a possibility. :?: :?:

So it really comes down to this perceived advantage/disadvantage - I am curious to know what that is considering we would all have the same view settings.

Care to elaborate?


Percieved as in unknown, but assumed. Playing zoomed out would give you better overview for instance. It boils down to what the game developers are trying to achieve really. They are aiming for a close to the ground experience so the best way to keep it even is to keep the view the same for everyone (naturally). The game is balanced on this factor and it is trying to do something unique with the drone/satelite cam which becomes obsolete if you let a player zoom all the way out.

I don't presume to know what consequences the different aspects could have for development (and neither should you). It depends on the engine they are using I imagine- it depends what kind of processing powers it requires on client side to use the engine in such a way.

I'm not stating these things as facts, I am suggesting them as possible reasons and concerns for why it is done the way it is done. Truelly, you can't get a hundred percent accurate answer on this unless it's from a developer themselves, and even then it might not be accurate =D

My assumption here is that they have gone this path for a reason and I respect that reason without knowing it. I personally enjoy the zoom out view in some games, but I like the zoomed in view in CoH 1 & 2, and in this case - in AoA as well (though due to size of it, I would enjoy it to be zoomed out a 20-50% more to be honest).

All in all, my experience in the game has been good - and it gave me the old C&C generals and Act of War feel that I have been longing for - I am very much looking forward to playing the campaign and experiencing what seems so far to be a really interesting "RTS story". If its anything like AoW story, it should be good- close zoom and all =D

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby jimieus » Mon 18 May 2015 13:16

AwesomeLion wrote:
Percieved as in unknown, but assumed. Playing zoomed out would give you better overview for instance. It boils down to what the game developers are trying to achieve really. They are aiming for a close to the ground experience so the best way to keep it even is to keep the view the same for everyone (naturally). The game is balanced on this factor and it is trying to do something unique with the drone/satelite cam which becomes obsolete if you let a player zoom all the way out.

I don't presume to know what consequences the different aspects could have for development (and neither should you). It depends on the engine they are using I imagine- it depends what kind of processing powers it requires on client side to use the engine in such a way.

I'm not stating these things as facts, I am suggesting them as possible reasons and concerns for why it is done the way it is done. Truelly, you can't get a hundred percent accurate answer on this unless it's from a developer themselves, and even then it might not be accurate =D

My assumption here is that they have gone this path for a reason and I respect that reason without knowing it. I personally enjoy the zoom out view in some games, but I like the zoomed in view in CoH 1 & 2, and in this case - in AoA as well (though due to size of it, I would enjoy it to be zoomed out a 20-50% more to be honest).

All in all, my experience in the game has been good - and it gave me the old C&C generals and Act of War feel that I have been longing for - I am very much looking forward to playing the campaign and experiencing what seems so far to be a really interesting "RTS story". If its anything like AoW story, it should be good- close zoom and all =D


Thankyou for the well explained response!!

Well, I would like to think we can all agree that there could be a reasonable amount of additional zoom added without robbing the drone camera of its purpose - even by just adding tilt to the equation you could mitigate the issues you speak of! :)

As for development, we know this is built in the iriszoom engine - have you played any of the wargame/ruse series? If not, definitely worth a check-out - if only to see its incredible performance.

I am glad you explained this - because really from what you said IMO there isn't a solid reason why having additional zoom out should adversely affect you as you can still get the view you are accustomed to. This point, however, was the one I was after (which I suspected)

Playing zoomed out would give you better overview


Is this really an advantage if everyone can do it? - Honestly, this sounds like something some people don't want to adjust to? Which is a fair way to be, but hardly a good reason to keep the current view IMHO.

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby D-M » Mon 18 May 2015 13:33

Coffee_Zombie wrote:
D-M wrote:
we have improved past the minimap


When ? I remind you there is still a minimap in Wargame.


D-M I know you are defender of the zoom but games like supreme commander, ruse, wargame have moved past the minimap as your primary strategic view for very good reason. It still serves a purpose just as a quick secondary. Iris lets you choose the size of your focus. Which is important.


You know nothing, I don't "defend" the zoom, I explain why a wargame-like zoom 'd break the game in the end and why it's not a solution to a mini-map issue.
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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby jimieus » Mon 18 May 2015 14:54

D-M wrote:
You know nothing, I don't "defend" the zoom, I explain why a wargame-like zoom 'd break the game in the end and why it's not a solution to a mini-map issue.


How would it "break the game in the end" again? Genuinely curious missed that post where you explained it.

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby Kozzmozz » Mon 18 May 2015 17:35

Iris zoom is eventually making this in a boardgame. No thx.

they clearly stated that this game was an oldskool rts. If you like games with the iriszoom thats nice but there are games that cater for your needs. -no offense-

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AwesomeLion
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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby AwesomeLion » Mon 18 May 2015 18:58

jimieus wrote:Is this really an advantage if everyone can do it? - Honestly, this sounds like something some people don't want to adjust to? Which is a fair way to be, but hardly a good reason to keep the current view IMHO.


Nope, not really if everyone can do it. But it might force people who prefer playing zoomed inn to play zoomed out to stay competetive =)

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Re: Zoom - Minimap a step backwards

Postby trineroks » Mon 18 May 2015 23:23

AwesomeLion wrote:
jimieus wrote:Is this really an advantage if everyone can do it? - Honestly, this sounds like something some people don't want to adjust to? Which is a fair way to be, but hardly a good reason to keep the current view IMHO.


Nope, not really if everyone can do it. But it might force people who prefer playing zoomed inn to play zoomed out to stay competetive =)
This is most definitely correct.

One of the most iconic things about traditional RTS is that it brings you right up to the action - you can see tanks and soldiers moving around and blowing things up with high fidelity.

When you allow a player to zoom all the way out as is the case with Wargame, the player with more vision of the map is at a huge advantage.

Why do you think no one plays Wargame zoomed in? Because you cannot possibly compete with other players when you restrict your viewport like that when others can see the entire map. So it forces you to zoom out as well, hence giving Wargame that "icon board game" feel that traditional RTS enthusiasts want to avoid. They want to stay competitive while enjoying the close up action - not be forced to look at unit icons all day.
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