Please have another look at the zoom levels

p10k56
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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby p10k56 » Thu 23 Jul 2015 17:25

Zoom level is problematic also Minimap could see some increase in size.
But image the anger of dev who implemented glorious sat view when peoples stops to use it :lol:
For now my biggest enemy is terrible interface and zoom level not foe.

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Re: ZOOM SUCKS!

Postby Scrooge » Thu 23 Jul 2015 18:15

I was writing something about you beeing rather ignorant about the current system. Not just you personaly! Instead I will give you just some examples of issue you might run into with even an even higher zoom. You might not care about any of them, its even possible that you will like some of them.

- more complains about zoom
- higher min. system requirements -> less customer
- less micro -> more macro -> more complains about exploitation duration, etc.
- less visial apealing -> fewer viewer (youtube, twitch, etc) -> less (no) tournaments -> fewer player -> ...
- more(to much for some) information-> even more complains about the pace of the game
(SAT view is actually a pretty good idea because it filters information for you)
- more issues with unit identification
- demotion of infantry and POW's
imminent
im•mi•nent (ˈɪm ə nənt) - adj. - likely to occur at any moment; impending: Her death is imminent.

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Re: The current zoom mod is it ok to use and Steamworkshop support.

Postby Varacka » Thu 23 Jul 2015 20:20

I second this request for either workshop and/or mod support in general (I prefer the latter as I hope to see the game available off steam eventually too.)

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Thu 23 Jul 2015 20:23

Bdrunkz wrote:The game looks amazing. But, I will not buy until the zoom issue is resolved. At the very least Eugen can let us know if they will allow the mod.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "allowing the mod"?
Allowing people to play a mod among temselves? Sure, we have always allowed people to do so in Wargame.
Allowing people to play a mod against people not using it? Of course we won't allow it. Any modding of the game (be it zoom, stats, ...) in a normal game will be regarded as cheating.

Although we are not deaf and testing some zoom change on our end too.
But our margin of manoeuver is small, for if people with high performance machines can play without problems with unconstrained zoom, lesser ones won't. And our goal is to keep the game playable the same way for everybody, not to offer high performance machines an advantage others wouldn't have ...

Ark07 wrote:Will we see steamworkshop support for the game?

It is not planned.

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Re: ZOOM SUCKS!

Postby rawalanche » Thu 23 Jul 2015 20:48

Scrooge wrote:I was writing something about you beeing rather ignorant about the current system. Not just you personaly! Instead I will give you just some examples of issue you might run into with even an even higher zoom. You might not care about any of them, its even possible that you will like some of them.

- more complains about zoom
- higher min. system requirements -> less customer
- less micro -> more macro -> more complains about exploitation duration, etc.
- less visial apealing -> fewer viewer (youtube, twitch, etc) -> less (no) tournaments -> fewer player -> ...
- more(to much for some) information-> even more complains about the pace of the game
(SAT view is actually a pretty good idea because it filters information for you)
- more issues with unit identification
- demotion of infantry and POW's


Are you serious? Pretty much every single of these arguments fails.
- When mesh/texture LOD is implemented correctly, hardware overhead between zoom levels will be minimal to none.

- Less micro more macro is good. It encourages more intelligent and strategical thinking, instead of moving to South Korea and spending 14 hours a day raping your muscle memory to shave 0.01s off your bag of predetermined sequences of key presses and mouse clicks. Having a life where you can go to work, out with friends or just sport around a bit, then come home, throw a jacket on the hook, launch game and still be able to defeat someone because you go smart and strategically about the game is definitely a positive thing.

- Different zoom levels do not make games more or less visually appealing. There are games like C&C3, Starcraft 2, Generals, and no one ever had complains about zoom level there, nor did anyone have complains about visuals at the time games were released. Also, hardware is now vastly better, probably even by order of magnitude, yet AOA does not look much better than C&C 3 Tiberium Wars did. There's a lot of space for graphical improvement, or for more zoom levels.

- Most of the players now spend 90% of their game watching SAT view, so basically all the graphics Eugen's artists spend working hard on will be mostly put to waste.
Also, talking about visual appeal you mentioned above: What do you think a gamer, who accidentally stumbles upon AOA gameplay video on YouTube, never seeing AOA before, will think, when he sees the guy playing only in SAT view the entire game. If he misses the part out of the SAT view, which will be probably just minor part, he may easily assume the game just looks that way, that's it's probably some indie low budget thing.

- Unit identification is an issue even at current zoom level. It's not fault of zoom, but rather mistake on the side of shading and texturing artists along with game designers. More zoom will not make it better or worse.

- And of course, better zoom will not demote infantry gameplay. No one will stop making units just because they look smaller. Looks of units is quite irrelevant. You would keep spamming Exo soldiers even if they looked like minions from despicable me. That being said, they would indeed be small. But that's again fault on game designers' side. Completely realistic unit-to-building scale may be a good idea for something tactical like Wargame, but in case of regular oldschool RTS may backfire, like in this particular case.

Soldiers could be little larger, and all buildings in the game, including static map props could be scaled down. Base buildings would look right if they were scaled down further by 1 grid square both horizontally and vertically.

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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby jimutt » Thu 23 Jul 2015 20:57

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Although we are not deaf and testing some zoom change on our end too.
But our margin of manoeuver is small, for if people with high performance machines can play without problems with unconstrained zoom, lesser ones won't. And our goal is to keep the game playable the same way for everybody, not to offer high performance machines an advantage others wouldn't have ...

It is not planned.


Thank you very much for commenting on the subject. :) I hope that you will find it possible to implement improvements of the zoom levels without ruining it for users playing the game on low-end rigs. Just keep in mind that you would probably like the game to live for more than a couple of months and then gameplay could sometimes be more important than support for extremely low performance rigs. And remember how well games like ARK are selling even though the hight hardware requirements. Though I do understand the point of supporting low-end computers but after all I guess you're company is in it quite much for the money (else there will be less resources for future games) so please consider what will be the best move from your side. Judging from other titles and games that's had similar issues I at least now what I personally think would be the best. ;)

Looking forward to an update about this later on. Other than the camera and some of the UI related stuff I believe the game is looking great so far. Keep up the good work. :)

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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby Corgin » Thu 23 Jul 2015 20:58

[EUG]MadMat wrote:Although we are not deaf and testing some zoom change on our end too.
But our margin of manoeuver is small, for if people with high performance machines can play without problems with unconstrained zoom, lesser ones won't. And our goal is to keep the game playable the same way for everybody, not to offer high performance machines an advantage others wouldn't have ...


I'm very happy to hear, that you guys are seeing the issue that a lot of players have with the camera. But in my opinion the main thing to take into consideration is not performance (I know you guys have done some really great work with LODs in Wargame) but unit visibility. Infantry already suffers from this problem (which could be solved by creating unique icons for them instead of the generic triangle IMO), so we need some way to quickly identify units at a glance. I know you guys tried to prevent the "icon-war" of Supreme Commander but that might be one way out of this dilemma.
Another one could be to slowly apply the effects of satellite view as the player zooms out, which would also increase visual clarity.
In any case, I'll be thrilled to see what you guys come up with! :)

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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby rawalanche » Thu 23 Jul 2015 21:04

[EUG]MadMat wrote:And our goal is to keep the game playable the same way for everybody, not to offer high performance machines an advantage others wouldn't have ...


Since it's beta, i believe you can still change minimal system requirements to something better and put on a disclaimer you can not guarantee comfortable gameplay for those with specs under minimal requirements.

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Re: Please have another look at the zoom levels

Postby Costin » Thu 23 Jul 2015 21:18

Although we are not deaf and testing some zoom change on our end too.
But our margin of manoeuver is small, for if people with high performance machines can play without problems with unconstrained zoom, lesser ones won't. And our goal is to keep the game playable the same way for everybody, not to offer high performance machines an advantage others wouldn't have ...


Sorry but I gotta say this as is:

This line of thought, and you guys are far from the only ones who use it, is simply put NONSENSE. Many devs have screwed over the graphics of their game, and forcing us to use satellite mode which is ugly as shit but runs better is exactly this, but have failed in their goal of some perfomance parity. Why? Because people with high end machines will always have an advantage over those with lower end machines, be it due to better FPS, better controls due to superior mouse and keyboard and other things.

The argument does not hold any water. Blizzard was recently trying to shove this very notion in our faces with the FOV limit in Overwatch, but they realized it was a meaningless argument, hope you guys realize that forcing us in sat mode is not ideal especially for a strategy game that has no active skills.

Or how about this: Keep the current sat mod for those with low end rigs as an option and give the rest of us that have high end rigs or DO NOT care about lower performance a higher zoom as a replacement of sat mode, while limiting our zoom when we run out of power.

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Re: ZOOM SUCKS!

Postby ZxGanon » Thu 23 Jul 2015 21:43

The current zoom is really wierd and feels kinda bad and destroys my gameplay.

Im using the Zoom-Mod and I can see everything without even having performance issues.
(I can even see my Infantry and if you really wanna see your units in their full might just zoom in wtf)
Last edited by ZxGanon on Thu 23 Jul 2015 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
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