Cartel Late game and POWs

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby pandastick » Sat 22 Aug 2015 10:20

szalami1 said multiple time on the stream that pre patch cartel is already the weaker faction. Post patch it's painful to play cartel against US and chimera.

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby Adolith » Sat 22 Aug 2015 14:21

Some Kind of market wäre you could exchange RE to other resources at various rates would be nice.

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby AceRevo » Sat 22 Aug 2015 14:26

I'll rather have a prison that could generate infinite alluminium at 10 each seconds, then selling one prisoneers at a price of 1000.. Next time u get a few prisons full and can generate ininite alluminium, take a closer look at how fast you'll actually stock up full resources when not buying or building anything... ;)

Edit: for infinite dollars, you can build HQ's.. sure theyre more expensive then income outposts and Adm buildings, but hey, you get at least an possibility to generate EVERY resources infinite.. If you cant collect a few prisoneers early game you must be doing something wrong.

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ace40k
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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby ace40k » Sat 22 Aug 2015 14:52

Adolith wrote:Some Kind of market wäre you could exchange RE to other resources at various rates would be nice.

well, you already have a stock market for RE generation. and POW barracks for ALU generation (provided that you get 5 POWs and the upgrade).

but i like your suggestion and the stock market would be the perfect place for that. for example, exchange 500 RE for 500 OIL and 500 RE for 250 ALU. it could certainly work out well and solve the problem of Cartel's lategame struggle for resources.
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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby Selkares » Sat 22 Aug 2015 15:09

Chimera can also produce infinte Alu without sacrificing any POWs.

Carrtel is the only faction without $$ generating building.
Added on top of that they have to sacrifice their valuable POWs to generate Alu (which they totaly need for 90% of their vehicles)
And finally, being, imo, the faction that most relies on POWs, they are the one with the most expensive prisons.

USA: 1500$, 400Alu for hospital and 15 POWs
Chimera: 1000$, 500Alu for 10 POWs
Cartel: 1500$ barracks, + 750$ and 500Alu upgrade, thus 2250$ and 500Alu for 5 POWs

So in the end, it's:
USA: Spends 100$ and 26.7Alu per 4$ prisonner income
Chimera: Spends 100$ and 50Alu for 4$ prisonner income
Cartel: Spends 450$ and 100Alu per 4$ prisonner income

Even if we consider the double income upgrade for Cartel, it's:
USA: 100$, 26.7Alu per 4$
Chimera: 100$, 50Alu per 4$
Cartel: 225$, 50Alu, 50RE per 4$

That's a big difference .
Added to the fact that you need to sacrifice some for Alu generation.

Now regarding their building productions and what they allow you too build with their "infinite" income (not taking POWs into account):

USA with oil/$$: usefull for Abrams, marines, stinger, javelin, humvees, striker ATGM, sticker icv, F35 B, little bird, Osprey
Chimera with oil/$$ and Alu: pretty much everything but at a lower rate than US income, so ok
Cartel with RE: LOSAT and that's all, great! (irony...)

Of course I could go on, add POWs, but that just reinforces USA and Chimera, Cartel has nearly no $$ only units (apart from infantry and Scorpio) so they need to sacrifice their very small income generation for Alu.

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby cheesenium » Sun 23 Aug 2015 09:55

At least for me, I think the end game resource generation still needs work, it is pretty much a mess now, at the moment. And it is a very thorny issues to talk about because there are a portion of players who thinks the game pretty much ends in 30 minutes or so, all these discussions doesnt matter. Yeah, for them, all these end game generators doesnt need to be balanced or what so ever. Despite most of my games are around an hour which I did have resource shortage issues.

In my experience, Chimera generally has the least issues in late game but both Cartel and US seemed to have some problems.

US has very good cash generators in form of Administrative Centers and also Field Hospital but they are completely lack of ability to generate Alumminium other than the clunky and unintuitive exchange prisoners for 1000 Aluminium. However, US has the upgrade to make their wells last longer and also Non-lethal upgrade for higher prisoner generation, the issue still remains where the Prisoner Exchange mechanism is fairly clunky in my opinion considering the other 2 factions can sit in their base and generate resources while US constantly needs to kill for PoW. I think the Administrative Center do need a small amount of aluminium generator to compensate for the extremely high price or a price nerf.

Cartel, on the other hand, I finally went into the problem of low Aluminium because the game I had didnt have much battles where I only had 3 fully stock PoW barracks that isnt enough to generate both cash and aluminium to sustain my unit production.

Still, I hope there will be an option to change the resource amount in the wells(maybe from 100% more to Unlimited) for custom games in the future as the current end game generator mechanics is messy, IMO. The current mechanics of the end game resource generators slows the game down way too much and it isnt fun to play at all when you have both side had their unit production slowed down tremendously. The RNG associated with PoW generation is fairly random where I had games that had so many PoW where I had to constantly building new buildings to accommodate them then in other games, the PoW generation is so little to the point the game grind to almost a halt after certain point in the game. It is awful so far.

At least for now, AoA seemed like it is not balanced or designed to have games longer than 1 hour as there are barely any mechanism designed to keep the game going after all the wells dried up. And the wells dries up really quickly too. At the same time, AoA pretty much went back into the same unfun trap that Act of War had where both game's end game are about PoW accumulation than fighting your opponent's army.

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Sun 23 Aug 2015 10:18

C&CIsDead wrote:I agree. cartel eco is quite bad. maybe even make the pows to generate both oil and alum with upgrade that double the income(40 oil and alum at the same time!).


cheesenium wrote:At least for me, I think the end game resource generation still needs work, it is pretty much a mess now, at the moment

Some points you might take into account:
-You get + 50% Economy automatically with Black ops without any additional Upgrades
- you dont need LEMS (only 1-2 for expanding [secure Tokamak-placement outside of the base] and 1 for Rare earth additional exclusive-storage), FOBS or Outposts.
- your flying K-Max are quick AND cheap and you have like half the costs for transporters!
- you have the Live insurance which is very valuable if you use the faction that you are playing right!

The factions in AoA are not made to iron down your strategy at all costs.
Maybe it helps already if you just use them more responsively?

Just to make sure that you are already aware of it all...

---
Edit: I recently had a pretty exciting Game with Cartel with Lategame getting important.
You might enjoy this replay to see
1. the POWs that I could have made if I have had the awareness to capure them all
2. That 5 Stock markets gave me a more than enough rare Earth to feed my economy.
Replay here: http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305892

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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby C&CIsDead » Sun 23 Aug 2015 16:06

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:
C&CIsDead wrote:I agree. cartel eco is quite bad. maybe even make the pows to generate both oil and alum with upgrade that double the income(40 oil and alum at the same time!).


cheesenium wrote:At least for me, I think the end game resource generation still needs work, it is pretty much a mess now, at the moment

Some points you might take into account:
-You get + 50% Economy automatically with Black ops without any additional Upgrades
- you dont need LEMS (only 1-2 for expanding [secure Tokamak-placement outside of the base] and 1 for Rare earth additional exclusive-storage), FOBS or Outposts.
- your flying K-Max are quick AND cheap and you have like half the costs for transporters!
- you have the Live insurance which is very valuable if you use the faction that you are playing right!

The factions in AoA are not made to iron down your strategy at all costs.
Maybe it helps already if you just use them more responsively?

Just to make sure that you are already aware of it all...

---
Edit: I recently had a pretty exciting Game with Cartel with Lategame getting important.
You might enjoy this replay to see
1. the POWs that I could have made if I have had the awareness to capure them all
2. That 5 Stock markets gave me a more than enough rare Earth to feed my economy.
Replay here: http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305892


but for every advantage has an disadvantage:


-I dont think that Black ops double your economy any more, it is does not say it any more. and if it is, it will make you ran out of resource even faster.
-Becaus there is no lem you need more k max so for example: in us you make 1 m993 and it is cost 400, in cartel you make like 3 or 4 or. so lets say 3*200=600. and dont forget that they can get kill very fast.

-All the units costs alot, but still, they are not so good.
-you can't always get prisoners: big map, your mate are cartel too,or just noobs that are not cartel and does not understand that you need pows more than them.

But yes, sometimes i get my economy right in late game.
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Re: Cartel Late game and POWs

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Sun 23 Aug 2015 20:51

C&CIsDead wrote:
KampfKeksKrieger wrote:
Spoiler : :
C&CIsDead wrote:I agree. cartel eco is quite bad. maybe even make the pows to generate both oil and alum with upgrade that double the income(40 oil and alum at the same time!).


cheesenium wrote:At least for me, I think the end game resource generation still needs work, it is pretty much a mess now, at the moment

Some points you might take into account:
-You get + 50% Economy automatically with Black ops without any additional Upgrades
- you dont need LEMS (only 1-2 for expanding [secure Tokamak-placement outside of the base] and 1 for Rare earth additional exclusive-storage), FOBS or Outposts.
- your flying K-Max are quick AND cheap and you have like half the costs for transporters!
- you have the Live insurance which is very valuable if you use the faction that you are playing right!

The factions in AoA are not made to iron down your strategy at all costs.
Maybe it helps already if you just use them more responsively?

Just to make sure that you are already aware of it all...

---
Edit: I recently had a pretty exciting Game with Cartel with Lategame getting important.
You might enjoy this replay to see
1. the POWs that I could have made if I have had the awareness to capure them all
2. That 5 Stock markets gave me a more than enough rare Earth to feed my economy.
Replay here: http://www.gamereplays.org/actofaggress ... &id=305892


but for every advantage has an disadvantage:


-I dont think that Black ops double your economy any more, it is does not say it any more. and if it is, it will make you ran out of resource even faster.
-Becaus there is no lem you need more k max so for example: in us you make 1 m993 and it is cost 400, in cartel you make like 3 or 4 or. so lets say 3*200=600. and dont forget that they can get kill very fast.

-All the units costs alot, but still, they are not so good.
-you can't always get prisoners: big map, your mate are cartel too,or just noobs that are not cartel and does not understand that you need pows more than them.

But yes, sometimes i get my economy right in late game.


I Agree. You are right.
And Black ops does not increase the economy. I just looked it before as I did not test or notice it before. So obviously they really dont have it anymore (and I think they didn't also have it before as I did notice that I did not need to build more K-Max at Black ops Level to keep my refinery-Storage free).
But at least, Cartel have still they their life insurance. Maybe the devs should extend it for the other units also. And maybe even the buildings to have a 100%-Replacement for the lower refinery speed. It would also fit to the Cartel by game design.
But also now, I think that the Life Insurance is a good excuse not to have any refinery upgrades. It linders the pain a little bit.
Take into account also, that the Stealth upgrades for the refinery and also K-Max either is something unique that the other factions do not have. I would consider this as a specialistion like the Crusher with its weapon upgrade and the US-Truck getting its big quality-boost therefore.

But for the 400-er m993 doing his job alone you must do both of the upgrades. otherwise you need at least 2 (for the first refinery, or a 500$-Lem), 1 is not quite enough, and rather 3 for the outers - and beyond that you still need FOBS (or Outposts) with extra costs each. (which replaces the 3 trucks into 1 or 2 respectively depending on the situation and the upgrades though)

The last update did also shrink the costs a little bit (200 -> 175) which you might consider...
...and I also want to say something about LEMs. But I spoiler this to keep the thread readable a bit.
Spoiler : :
Many players seem to use them in large numbers. I often see at least 4 in one base! You might think different, but I say:
You dont need even a single LEM throughout the game!
Okay, it might not be quite correct, there are some reasons to build a LEM:
1. The USA has only 1000 Alu storage thats really very small and I can understand the people who want to store something due to the difficulty to spend everything that you collect right in time. But as the storage is global you can also build just 1 or 2 FOBs at their right place where your extensions are and you have enough global storage to fit your needs. At least for me it is enough usually.
I dont even need Rare-Earth-LEMS because FOBs storage it both.
I only occasionally build 1 LEM in the beginning as 1000 is indeed very short.

2. With Cartel I also dont build a single LEM to cut the travel way as the movement speed of the K-Max is not really deciding for me.
the one more drone per refinery is cheaper and better for me as it does not use the HQ-Building queue (okay the last one is barely an argument for you I think)
I really only build 1 Lem for each Tokamak I have to build to secure the base from a Fallout 2-Scenario :D and also, I admit it, one Rare Earth LEM to have some guaranteed Rare Earth-Exclusive storage, because that is in conflict with my ALU storage sometimes, when the one drones cannot unload their rare Earth container because the ALU production is quicker than I could spend.
So I build 1 RE-LEM and all problems are solved for me.

Raided K-Max by the way are quickly replaced for me, but as I am a very good player, I might also just not get into certain situations which normal players usually occur and this is why it is also important that not only good players (like my humble self) are devoting their opinion.

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