Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Booom3
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Booom3 » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:00

torinus wrote:
Booom3 wrote:
HarryD wrote: Care to give a full answer backed up with some consistent logic to look older than 14 years old?

Straight to insults. You're a moron.

Boom don't go down to his level, he has more experience at it and will beat you eventually :)

I have a PHD in shitposting. But don't worry, I'm done replying to him.

HarryD
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby HarryD » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:10

Booom3 wrote:
HarryD wrote: Care to give a full answer backed up with some consistent logic to look older than 14 years old?

Straight to insults. You're a moron.


So the rest of my post about different tactics doesn't bring up any consistent questions? I'm glad we came into agreement.
Furthermore I consider that Buratino must lose it's NPLM trait.

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Previously known as Wore on the forums

Basura Nephilim
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Basura Nephilim » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:17

torinus wrote:
Basura Nephilim wrote:Actually I ran into a player that knows what I played. So he instantly made a counter move, that killed my scout, then ruined my economy. All before I could respond properly.

Cartel always starts out with 2 - 4 vipers to defend.
That's why you always build barracks first.
It defends against both Chimera and US. But if you'r up against the US on certain maps it's still a hassle, because the Humvee outfights, outranges, and is faster (even when heavily damaged) than Vipers.

The defense units slow your build a bit, but it's very doable. Though I think it will be SO much more hard for Cartel without the element of surprise. Chimera will always get an early turret, USA will always bumrush you with heli's with stingers to murder your eco.

So, map in loading screen? Yes pls. Prefferably with the locations of resources on them, so newer people can learn the map and more expirienced ones can make a strategem.
Faction? No thank you. (if that does happen, there would need to be balance changes for every faction)

Only thing I agree here about being able to see the map during loading with all possible resource spots shown so newer players can learn faster.

You build a turret early with Chimera? Early enough to stop the US recon rush? I don't think so. Also that SAS is needed to defend your troops moving towards the bank or the recon kills your Felins.

We are talking here about top level play, not some noob 3v3 or 4v4 league?! I really don't care what those think how the game is played.



You misunderstand completely.
This is all from a cartel point of view.
What I am saying is that: If people know from the get go, what they are up against, they will from 0:01 in the game, make a build that counters every possibility of early aggression for that faction.
As an example: if I instantly know it's cartel vs cartel, I forego vipers all together, and save some money on that, and build a grinch somewhere in my base.
Showing what you're up against just switches the play style you have from the get-go too much.
Giving some factions an advantage, other's a disadvantage.
The game already has some balance issues, and I think that showing what you're up against will make that an even bigger problem.

We are talking here about top level play, not some noob 3v3 or 4v4 league?!

This is a nice piece of assumption though.
I'm not the best player around, neither the worst. Currently I tend to hang between rank 20 - 40. With about a 60% win-rate. And i'm not afraid to say that, yes I do firmly get outclassed by the people higher than lvl 20, since they have about 90 + hours in the multiplayer. So, there's my credentials.
But beside all that, I feel that the points I bring into the discussion hold some merit, and show that i'm not a completely thoughtless drone.

torinus
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby torinus » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:28

Basura Nephilim wrote:
torinus wrote:Only thing I agree here about being able to see the map during loading with all possible resource spots shown so newer players can learn faster.

You build a turret early with Chimera? Early enough to stop the US recon rush? I don't think so. Also that SAS is needed to defend your troops moving towards the bank or the recon kills your Felins.

We are talking here about top level play, not some noob 3v3 or 4v4 league?! I really don't care what those think how the game is played.

You misunderstand completely.
This is all from a cartel point of view.
What I am saying is that: If people know from the get go, what they are up against, they will from 0:01 in the game, make a build that counters every possibility of early aggression for that faction.
As an example: if I instantly know it's cartel vs cartel, I forego vipers all together, and save some money on that, and build a grinch somewhere in my base.
Showing what you're up against just switches the play style you have from the get-go too much.
Giving some factions an advantage, other's a disadvantage.
The game already has some balance issues, and I think that showing what you're up against will make that an even bigger problem.

Ah this is even more interesting. So your winning depends on doing rushes that depend on surprise instead of skill? Do tell us more.

Nobody can from 0.01 defend vs everything but can make educated guesses what might happen and what are options and that opens more options than blindly building defense units just because you enemy might be USA.
Sorry but you don't have a case here. I am sure Eugene will change this when they can, every previous good RTS didn't hide this info.

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Basura Nephilim » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:48

Was actually going to humor you and try to explain it more clear...
But if you are going to disregard everything so brutishly, and undignified with such responses...
Then it's really not worth putting energy in.

Better off just marking you as a troll, and ignore your ravings in the future. I'll have some patience left then for people more deserving of it.

Please go reflect on your unpleasant behavior, for the sake of everybody you come in contact with =/

HarryD
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby HarryD » Wed 9 Sep 2015 18:55

Basura Nephilim wrote:Was actually going to humor you and try to explain it more clear...
But if you are going to disregard everything so brutishly, and undignified with such responses...
Then it's really not worth putting energy in.

Better off just marking you as a troll, and ignore your ravings in the future. I'll have some patience left then for people more deserving of it.

Please go reflect on your unpleasant behavior, for the sake of everybody you come in contact with =/


Another wise man here.
Furthermore I consider that Buratino must lose it's NPLM trait.

HarryD in Steam and Wargame RD

Previously known as Wore on the forums

torinus
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby torinus » Wed 9 Sep 2015 19:12

Basura Nephilim wrote:Was actually going to humor you and try to explain it more clear...
But if you are going to disregard everything so brutishly, and undignified with such responses...
Then it's really not worth putting energy in.

Better off just marking you as a troll, and ignore your ravings in the future. I'll have some patience left then for people more deserving of it.

Please go reflect on your unpleasant behavior, for the sake of everybody you come in contact with =/

#1 expected rule of internet: When they run out of arguments they attack you. First you guys did it to boom and now to me.
Have fun in your little world.

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Netput » Wed 9 Sep 2015 19:45

Basura Nephilim wrote:
You misunderstand completely.
This is all from a cartel point of view.
What I am saying is that: If people know from the get go, what they are up against, they will from 0:01 in the game, make a build that counters every possibility of early aggression for that faction.
As an example: if I instantly know it's cartel vs cartel, I forego vipers all together, and save some money on that, and build a grinch somewhere in my base.
Showing what you're up against just switches the play style you have from the get-go too much.
Giving some factions an advantage, other's a disadvantage.
The game already has some balance issues, and I think that showing what you're up against will make that an even bigger problem.

I don't think you have all of your facts straight. The fact that we do not know the faction we play against limits the possible openings and therefore makes it more predictable what the enemy is going to do. Therefore the game gets more dull and predictable and it loses strategic options.

As i wrote before:
Cartel/Chimera is FORCED to build a barracks first and some vipers/SAS. Simply because the first free reckon unit from US has a great chance to win US the early game. There is NO way around it. You HAVE to do it. If you do not do it, you are gambling that you play against Chimera/Cartel. This is boring and is LIMITING your options immensely. There is absolutely no way to argue about this, as it is a simple fact.

You have a 1/3 chance you play vs US. If you don't build vipers/SAS, you have a 1/3 chance of losing a game right away. So therefore using a different opener other then barracks/ref is a gamble. gambles have no place in a RTS game.

Now imagine you could see your opponents race. You can start with double oil/alu into barracks. Maybe even double barracks into 12 felins to capture both banks. All strategies (or openings if you like) are now available again if your not facing US. This instantly makes the game more interesting because you have more choices. This is true on both 'low' level play and 'high' level play. You can either play a eco build or a aggressive build or a solid mix between all of those. There is no '1 build rules all' build in this game (yet?) and i highly doubt there ever will be. So there absolutely is no 'they will from 0:01 in the game, make a build that counters every possibility of early aggression for that faction.' That statement is so false, i shouldn't even have to explain that.
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///M-Power
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby ///M-Power » Thu 10 Sep 2015 01:06

The US "recon rush" does not come free. There is no such thing as a free lunch, not even for the US.
If I as US go straight to the enemy base, I give up on scouting resources. Once in the enemy base, I also risk loosing my scout.
US scout is worth 1200.-, e few k-max or crusher are shit compared to that. Microing your Recon unit also requires attention, which makes it more challenging to follow your base build.

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Megiddo » Thu 10 Sep 2015 01:34

VJS161Fire wrote:I like the surprise effect of the ranked games, because I have to do all the basics:
+ recon the map and your enemy
+ build a instant defensive force (for myself, I place 1 marine and 2-3 vipers in the base to prevent recon rushes)
+ prepare for everything :mrgreen:

Plus, because your enemy also don't know which faction you play, prevents him to use a specific build order against a specific faction - remember: They also don't know, which faction you are. ;)

I like that we don't know which map we'll play, as well.


Kind regards,
Fire


The wisest post of this thread imho.

Same starting conditions for everyone, same basics to apply for the newbies or the "top players"...anyways, under the minute mark, any faction has the possibility to scout and see the faction and opening of the opponent.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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