Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

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Megiddo
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Megiddo » Thu 10 Sep 2015 21:19

@Netput :

What you said makes sense i give you that, and i understand your reasons, the time and eco imperatives for example.

let's have a look : many of the points you underlined can be solved by scouting yourself the map and discovering the enemy faction or intentions. all factions can do that. and you can as well open agressively on the opponent or greedy on the resource sites. As the opponent. so no fatality or jeopardy here imho. you're still in charge.

Now strictly about the units to counter a US reckon team rushing your base (not eco harassing...etc) : First you have your own scout unit (US reckon/UGV), and if reasonably well managed, 2 javelins (600 oil), 2 SAS (1300 oil), or 2 vipers (400 oil) can get rid of a US scout (1200 oil). Among other possible choices. The unit trade is always relatively fair for the defensive team, maybe specially for cartel to compensate the fact that their scout unit can't fire. even if you add a third, or 4th javelin/viper. beyond that, i agree with you about the time needed to build the defense, too short since the US reckon just has to go straight into your base. and so the economic disadvantage it implies. you got this point.

Then, if you want banks incomes, barracks are mandatory. all things considered, not a waste of money at early game.

Finally, through all i saw in this thread i have the impression that the balance about the scout units, US army one in particular, and more generally the equilibrium between rush and defense early possibilities are more at stake than the old dusty habits and practices in ranked matches. on this i agree with you, even if we have a different point of view about knowing or ignoring the opponent's faction or the map.

i'm just glad that AoA tries to move things on and remove the dust on some ranked aspects, and i don't see where the ranked tactical appeal of the game could possibly suffer from that particular point. competition doesn't mean conservatism, and, respectfully, maybe you also are eager to forget that the competitive players could have to develop another gameplay approach one day. ;)


Heh, and if that's not enough, you can always show some good old fashioned fair-play and chat the opponent the faction you play with. i'm not sure that all the guys will answer though ;)
Last edited by Megiddo on Fri 11 Sep 2015 04:37, edited 3 times in total.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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WarriorWounds
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby WarriorWounds » Fri 11 Sep 2015 02:07

Plenty of games have elements of chance and unpredictability, that's what makes them entertaining and fun.

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Megiddo
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Megiddo » Fri 11 Sep 2015 02:21

WarriorWounds wrote:Plenty of games have elements of chance and unpredictability, that's what makes them entertaining and fun.


Totally agree. and so emphasizing on strategical thinking and tactical gameplay rather than statistics and timed build orders as the key gameplay. Maybe Eugen teams understood that very well with this particular choice.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Netput
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Netput » Fri 11 Sep 2015 08:57

Megiddo wrote:@Netput :

What you said makes sense i give you that, and i understand your reasons, the time and eco imperatives for example.

let's have a look : many of the points you underlined can be solved by scouting yourself the map and discovering the enemy faction or intentions. all factions can do that. and you can as well open agressively on the opponent or greedy on the resource sites. As the opponent. so no fatality or jeopardy here imho. you're still in charge.


No you can't. That is what i try to tell you the entire time. If you still don't get that, there is no point in discussing this issue with you any further.
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TheRev
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby TheRev » Fri 11 Sep 2015 09:46

Megiddo wrote:
WarriorWounds wrote:Plenty of games have elements of chance and unpredictability, that's what makes them entertaining and fun.


Totally agree. and so emphasizing on strategical thinking and tactical gameplay rather than statistics and timed build orders as the key gameplay. Maybe Eugen teams understood that very well with this particular choice.


Or maybe they just have no idea how to cater to the competitive RTS community.

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby torinus » Fri 11 Sep 2015 09:51

Ah Netput has more resilience with stubborn people but even he has his limits :D

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Ecoste » Fri 11 Sep 2015 11:30

The faction should be displayed. It doesn't make much difference, and that's exactly why it should be there. To add a bit more versatility to the early-game, so I know I don't have to build 2 vipers and can build a grinch instead when playing VS Cartel as opposed to playing VS the other 2 factions.

The game is lacking features for high-end competitive play, this is one of them.


Megiddo wrote:
WarriorWounds wrote:Plenty of games have elements of chance and unpredictability, that's what makes them entertaining and fun.


Totally agree. and so emphasizing on strategical thinking and tactical gameplay rather than statistics and timed build orders as the key gameplay. Maybe Eugen teams understood that very well with this particular choice.




Yes, yes, let's add some more randomness to the game, that'll help the multiplayer, surely.

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Megiddo
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Megiddo » Fri 11 Sep 2015 13:48

Netput wrote:
Megiddo wrote:@Netput :

What you said makes sense i give you that, and i understand your reasons, the time and eco imperatives for example.

let's have a look : many of the points you underlined can be solved by scouting yourself the map and discovering the enemy faction or intentions. all factions can do that. and you can as well open agressively on the opponent or greedy on the resource sites. As the opponent. so no fatality or jeopardy here imho. you're still in charge.


No you can't. That is what i try to tell you the entire time. If you still don't get that, there is no point in discussing this issue with you any further.


Finally, through all i saw in this thread i have the impression that the balance about the scout units, US army one in particular, and more generally the equilibrium between rush and defense early possibilities are more at stake than the old dusty habits and practices in ranked matches. on this i agree with you, even if we have a different point of view about knowing or ignoring the opponent's faction or the map.

i'm just glad that AoA tries to move things on and remove the dust on some ranked aspects, and i don't see where the ranked tactical appeal of the game could possibly suffer from that particular point. competition doesn't mean conservatism, and, respectfully, maybe you also are eager to forget that the competitive players could have to develop another gameplay approach one day. ;)


Maybe you missed, or dodged, the most important part then. the most strange thing in all that is that many people, including ranked, or "casual players", can do that very well. and not some competitive players? :|

Noone is fooled about the underlying reasons here.

Anyways, no offense, no rancour, just a difference in the point of view. :)
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby Booom3 » Fri 11 Sep 2015 14:11

Megiddo wrote:Maybe you missed, or dodged, the most important part then. the most strange thing in all that is that many people, including ranked, or "casual players", can do that very well. and not some competitive players? :|

They can't.

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WarriorWounds
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Re: Huge issue - can't see what army you play against

Postby WarriorWounds » Sat 12 Sep 2015 04:11

Oh boy, a lot of "my opinion is more important than your opinion" being thrown around in this thread. :roll:

Reality is that some people prefer it, some don't, no matter what Eugen does it will dissapoint a subset of the community.

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