Overkill (will) kill the game.

SentinelX
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Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby SentinelX » Mon 5 Oct 2015 17:39

Dear devs, pro-players:

TL;DR:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix overkill. This will hurt the game's longevity due to the frustrating moments that come forth with this!

I would really like to know your stance about the "overkill problem". The more i play, the more concerning i'm starting to get. When confronting an enemy mass (be it with infantry or tanks alike), like we all know and noticed, the first unit gets the brunt and then reload kicks in... This is the same for the enemy units, i know, but depending on the reload time, things get ugly quickly...

Example i had this weekend: 4v4, nearing the endgame i was restricted to LOSATs due to RE being my only sustainable rescource. No problem as is, as i had 2 refineries pumping RE and 4-5 stock markets to provide, so LOSAT galore.

Enter the last enemy... Being left alone for a while he banked and made a HUGE amount (no kidding, he had like 40 abrams TUSK2) of tanks. So while he steamrolls my allies base, i'm setting up for the final stand. 5-6 AMOS with Strix shells and 10-12 LOSATs... Just for the record, i'm NOT complaining i lost. We left him alone and he built a very sizeable force to deal with us.

The AMOS start to fire, dealing the first wave of damage to the tanks. Here's the calculation: the AMOS shells damage the abrams roughly for 1/3rd of damage, while 2 LOSATs finish the job (slight overkill here, but it is needed), i came to this conclusion earlier while confronting single tanks with a few LOSATs and some AMOS.

So if i calculate correctly, my 5-6 AMOS and 12 LOSATs can take out 6 tanks per volley, so 12 before reloading with the LOSAT Double Barrage upgrade.
Here's what the game decided: NO, you can't. WE SEE THIS UNIT, WE ALL KILL IT.

I killed 2!!! tanks with that entire army... Then the rest steamrolled my army, base and whatever was left of my last ally with 35 tanks LEFT OVER.

Eugen, this is FRUSTRATING TO WATCH! Stuff like this WILL kill the game due to frustration.

Like i said, i would have lost my base anyways in that particular scenario, but i could've given my ally a smaller force to ultimately deal with... This is balance stuff that needs to get fixed. You build a force that is (on paper) capable of taking a sizeable chunck out of the opponent's forces, but it doesn't.

This is also the reason why runby's are so awefully powerful. They dump their whole payload on the first (maybe 2) things they see and then you go: "oh? well, i guess i would've lost anyways..."

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby torinus » Mon 5 Oct 2015 18:19

You are playing a wrong game with this thinking. YOu might want to play Panzer General instead.

RTS games are not only about math, you have turn based games for that. In RTS your math/planning skills are supposed to be as important as your execution skills.

So next time don't wait until he comes to your base, meet him half way and after shooting retreat so your LOSAT have time to reload and/or go stealth again.

Or set up LOSAT in a wider area in a semi circle and have them all move in once tanks arrive.

Or your could have used your SW which costs only RE.

Or next time take your troops and put them together with your ally so his units can tank for your LOSAT that are basically glass cannon units.

There are many ways to play RTS, just asking for your math skills to work in it and not bothering to learn at all is wrong.

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby torinus » Mon 5 Oct 2015 18:20

And I am sure things like 0.5s delay with every action is a much bigger problem.

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby luclucaa » Mon 5 Oct 2015 18:40

torinus wrote:And I am sure things like 0.5s delay with every action is a much bigger problem.


That's exactly what I was gonna say.
I would still appreciate a light overkill prevention patch. Not something that would make every unit perfectly hit its targets with no lost ammo, but something that will remove, let's say, one third of the overkill.

BTW I'm not sure if LOSAT are faster than Tusk 2 Abrams, so kiting with them shouldn't be possible.

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siizon
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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby siizon » Mon 5 Oct 2015 18:53

torinus wrote:And I am sure things like 0.5s delay with every action is a much bigger problem.


This is the worst

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby torinus » Mon 5 Oct 2015 19:22

siizon wrote:
torinus wrote:And I am sure things like 0.5s delay with every action is a much bigger problem.


This is the worst

That is by far the #1 problem at the moment that affects all players in the game, MP and SP and of any skill, ranked or unranked.

Also the one that gives the biggest feel of not in control.

Eugene once you listened to people about multiple weapon system not being able to fire at same time and fixed it, now you need to do it again. If you plan to add DLCs and expansions, the lack of responsiveness will always hound your game and people will always complain about it a lot.

What I wonder is if the 0.5 delay is actually part of base game design for a reason, some way to sync the game. If it is, I don't know why should it be in the game in SP parts as well.

Also I think it would benefit the game a lot if all unit's acceleration and deceleration was doubled. It would make the game feel faster even if attack speed and max move speed was not changed.
Once you doubled all HP to make units live longer, do it again with a different number :)

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siizon
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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby siizon » Mon 5 Oct 2015 19:38

torinus wrote:
siizon wrote:
torinus wrote:And I am sure things like 0.5s delay with every action is a much bigger problem.


This is the worst

That is by far the #1 problem at the moment that affects all players in the game, MP and SP and of any skill, ranked or unranked.

Also the one that gives the biggest feel of not in control.

Eugene once you listened to people about multiple weapon system not being able to fire at same time and fixed it, now you need to do it again. If you plan to add DLCs and expansions, the lack of responsiveness will always hound your game and people will always complain about it a lot.

What I wonder is if the 0.5 delay is actually part of base game design for a reason, some way to sync the game. If it is, I don't know why should it be in the game in SP parts as well.

Also I think it would benefit the game a lot if all unit's acceleration and deceleration was doubled. It would make the game feel faster even if attack speed and max move speed was not changed.
Once you doubled all HP to make units live longer, do it again with a different number :)


Torinus, as usual, we are on the same page. Also, units following orders (ie attacking a different target just because it is shooting them) instead of the target :evil:

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby SentinelX » Mon 5 Oct 2015 19:48

torinus wrote:You are playing a wrong game with this thinking. YOu might want to play Panzer General instead.

RTS games are not only about math, you have turn based games for that. In RTS your math/planning skills are supposed to be as important as your execution skills.

So next time don't wait until he comes to your base, meet him half way and after shooting retreat so your LOSAT have time to reload and/or go stealth again.

Or set up LOSAT in a wider area in a semi circle and have them all move in once tanks arrive.

Or your could have used your SW which costs only RE.

Or next time take your troops and put them together with your ally so his units can tank for your LOSAT that are basically glass cannon units.

There are many ways to play RTS, just asking for your math skills to work in it and not bothering to learn at all is wrong.


torinus: i'm thinking you have never touched Starcraft or even the old C&C games then... NO unit in those games (execpt some AOE-units, like siegetanks for SC1 and SC2) have overkill...

This is not me solving a math problem, this is me solving a gameplay issue. Units should not waste all their ammo on 1 unit if 2-3 of said units could've done the job, UNLESS asked to!

If you move a ball of stalkers/roaches/marines vs a ball of roaches/marines/stalkers they will shoot at whatever they can target, using the AI smartfire to not overkill (unless ordered to, hence it is called focusfire) and deal damage proportionatly.

I can not believe that in this day and age, especially if Eugen is shooting for realism that smartfire is not in the game. Even W:AB and RD have smartfire, why should AoA not? This is utter waste of potential. If i have 10 vipers i want them to shoot atleast 3-4 different targets so they can take them out. Not all 10 shoot at 1 unit that happens to be upfront.

This has nothing to do with strategy/micro/whatever: this engine can surely handle this, but why isn't it implemented? I REALLY REALLY REALLY like this game, as it has (had?) potential to be great, but soooo many things are being overlooked.

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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby torinus » Mon 5 Oct 2015 20:13

Lol really? Starcraft 1 was full of overkill. It was a game feature, sending zealots in first so tanks waste their shot on them so your dragoons can get into position to fire. Dragoons had overkill as well. Any units that fire fast but projectiles took time to travel had overkill.

SentinelX
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Re: Overkill (will) kill the game.

Postby SentinelX » Mon 5 Oct 2015 20:21

I said in other topics i'm not a top player, but i'm also not completely oblivious to certain game mechanics.

About Starcraft: I was mainly referring to SC2, and i know that units did have overkill in SC1 (especially tanks), but the way it is portrayed here in AoA is just ridiculous, no? i know that 15 vipers kill an abrams tank, don't need the game to remind me everytime 1 passes, gets killed and lets another 5 of them through...

What luclucaa said would also be a great help. Don't remove it all, but diminish it so that units don't get wasted because they blew off prematurely.

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