[Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

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Araton
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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby Araton » Wed 23 Dec 2015 13:27

I don't believe that the fire stance and targeting (overkill) will ever be fixed in this game, seeing how little the game improves after each patch and how much pressure you need to put the developers to even lift a finger. They never stated why, but we sometimes see responses that reference rewriting the whole game or that the game wasn't designed to do that. All in all, it's too much effort for them. That's OK, answer accepted, but this shouldn't mean they should fiddle with their thumbs and do nothing.

I guess the only way to at least mitigate these problems is to change the balance a bit by fliping a couple of switches (which shouldn't be a problem in any moderatly well designed software).

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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby lincrono » Mon 28 Dec 2015 09:43

I don't think bombers should ever produce POWs. They you can't get POWs from bomber kills (they leave not survivors) and they tend to crash and break up into infantry killing fireballs anyway.

As for fighter's they suffer the same overkill mechanics attacking as the defender faces countering them. next time you face fighterspam try this: build a refinery (or any other relatively cheap, high HP building) between your base and the fighter point of origin . . . all those F-35 and PAK will dump huge amounts of ammo into it, leaving your base untouched (and a refinery costs about the same as one of these planes). even better, if you're US or chimera build a cluster of repair buildings to soak up the damage AND shield a few AA units (CWIS is always good here). It looks silly but it'd damn effective. It has the added bonus of stripping bombers of their escorts (they blow their ammo and return before getting to the target) allowing your AA to kill them.

as for killing planes this is pretty damn easy. first you need some of your own. if your enemy is investing heavily in plane spam you also need to invest a good amount in countermeasures (just like when you face tank spam). I guaranteed he's not going to capture any POWs his kills produce, because they are usually very far away, so you are already even on that front.

Generally I use a mix of AA ground units, theatre air defenses (skyguard, patriot, antey), and my own planes. AA infantry in a rough grid are viciously effective, very cheap, and only 2-3 hits is enough to down a plane. spread them out along the plane's path of approach, in groups of 4 or so (preferably in buildings). planes won't attack them and you can by 6 or more for the cost of one enemy plane (depending on what you face). better yet, in almost every case, each group of 4 will kill a plane every time they fire that's huge vs the 50+ lines of fighter spam.

you second line of defense is your theatre anti-air, which will engage planes from as far as 3/4 of the map away (antey), but suffer's overkill issues. They will down a plane with each volley more or less, but due to overkill you cannot rely solely on these even if you're manually targeting them.

Your third line is you own fighters but not just mindlessly shat out in a line. deploy them in groups of 2-4 IN A FAN pattern and from as many directions as it will allow (early warning radars/scouts are key so you can get them out with maximum distance) delay 1-2 seconds between each group to increase your chance of targeting different fighters at different times (or better yet, hotkey groups and manually target).

in clusters, I've also watched Phalanx and sentry turrets reliably take out their cost and more in fighters when backed with repair buildings and as part of the defense detailed above. I know most don't tend to think of them late game, but they don't suffer the same overkill issues. similarly oto's backed by repair vehicles, Grinch, and CWIS can be surprisingly effective, but the planes will target them, so it's a bit more expensive.

In addition, you need to be thinking of how to hit the enemy back line. quite often these players invest absolutely everything into their mass planes. this leaves them open to things as simple as backdoor sniper captures, or surprise scout CGS/metal storm attacks that can cripple the enormous amount of economy buildings needed to fuel a fighter spam.

Nerfing planes isn't the answer. for one thing, they do a lot to keep mass tanks in check. and they give each of the factions needed flexibility at critical times in their tech trees. sure nerfing fighters MIGHT hinder or eliminate fighter spam, but it will also make smaller groups of planes effectively useless. helicopters are already jokes, fighters shouldn't be as well.

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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby lincrono » Mon 28 Dec 2015 10:02

As for the POWs issue.

Planes should not drop them. Period.

People who use planes don't have a chance (in the overwhelming vast majority of cases) to capture any produced by their kills. For both side's it's a break even. Having planes drop POWs is just a backdoor way of eliminating planes from the game entirely, because the cost of the plane, Plus the cost of giving the enemy guaranteed POWs every wave will take them from annoying to utterly useless considering that a lot of the time the player can't target what he/she wants to with his aircraft, or they blow all their ammo too early.

what needs to change is how economy buildings function because all the big 'spams' are only possible because of them.

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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby Predatorrrr » Wed 30 Dec 2015 15:11

lincrono wrote:As for the POWs issue.

Planes should not drop them. Period. ....


26% of your units are planes. You are one of the guys who just plane spam all the time. I can see why you dont want them to drop POWs and make the game less easy for you. Economy buildings need to be tuned down? No, they do not need that, because that would crush the late game in a lot of cases because people just hide in their base and dont collect POWs, hence no alternate income.
You manage to kill only a few planes out of a long lane and then you dont want any POWs to drop? Of course you dont want that since you spam them all the time.

It is just not right that units which can be spammed like this dont drop POWs in high numbers as Abrams rightfully do. POWs are important to recover after a big push. And leaving them behind makes you think again if you want to make the big spam push like you intent to. By not leaving POWs you just dont have any downsides to spamming planes, it is broken right now.

If you cannot tackle the overkill problem, give them POWs to drop, that is a nice approach and first step in my opinion.


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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby torinus » Wed 30 Dec 2015 17:00

Well I would want planes to drop PoWs AND income building to be nerfed. Let those player learn to not turtle and spam as much.

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ZxGanon
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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby ZxGanon » Thu 31 Dec 2015 16:10

Araton wrote:Hi there,

Here's another topic about annoying trends and suggestions on how they should removed from the game.

As you may know Jet conga lines are cheesy and OP in every matchup and game type. Lines of forwarded Stingers/Griches, Anti Super weapons with range upgrades and dedicated AA units and buildings are simply outgunned by these units. I have the following suggestions to tune these units down a bit:

  • Limit the number of fighters that have air to ground missiles and Anti-Air capabilities to 1 or 2 per air control tower (PAK-F and F35B). The Cartel X-32 is not part of this group, since that unit only has two Air to ground missiles and is pathetic in general compared to the PAK-FA and F35. It also doesn't shoot air units.
  • Make fighter/bombers drop 2 pilots (POWs) at a minimum when shut down. Seriously, why is this not in the game already?
  • Reduce Air to ground missile damage to buildings. These units should not be able to level bases that easily.

What do you guys think?

I have no Idea why but I wanna Play AoA right now.

Going to download that and play it next year. (Which means in a few ours)
Gather My Cartel Children The Father Of Superhinds Is Calling!

lincrono
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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby lincrono » Thu 31 Dec 2015 21:02

Predatorrrr wrote:
lincrono wrote:As for the POWs issue.

Planes should not drop them. Period. ....


26% of your units are planes. You are one of the guys who just plane spam all the time. I can see why you dont want them to drop POWs and make the game less easy for you. Economy buildings need to be tuned down? No, they do not need that, because that would crush the late game in a lot of cases because people just hide in their base and dont collect POWs, hence no alternate income.
You manage to kill only a few planes out of a long lane and then you dont want any POWs to drop? Of course you dont want that since you spam them all the time.

It is just not right that units which can be spammed like this dont drop POWs in high numbers as Abrams rightfully do. POWs are important to recover after a big push. And leaving them behind makes you think again if you want to make the big spam push like you intent to. By not leaving POWs you just dont have any downsides to spamming planes, it is broken right now.

If you cannot tackle the overkill problem, give them POWs to drop, that is a nice approach and first step in my opinion.



1/3 of my units are planes . . . and just about 1/3 are infantry and 1/3 are vehicles . . . which is the kind of balanced combined arms military force you're supposed to use. I don't want POWs to drop from planes because I like planes being viable. helos are already a joke and planes at least force people to look beyond 24/7 Tusk 2 abrams/terminator/specter.

There are plenty of downsides to just spamming planes as it is. a big one being an inability to capture pows from kills, the extreme difficulty targeting them, and the shear cost. what I really want to happen, is people to stop whining about fighter spam and develop counters. I've got upwards of half a dozen long detailed posts floating around on here that do exactly that. All of which I've either fought against myself, or used to counter an enemy plane spam.

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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby Toysoldier » Sun 3 Jan 2016 17:07

It need really a limit of jets, i played so many matches they just win because of over 20 jets spam!
You can't counter it with ground AA no chance, only you spam same number of jets and hope you win... and i think it's not supposed to be played like that. :roll:

viewtopic.php?f=192&t=56039
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lincrono
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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby lincrono » Sun 3 Jan 2016 19:01

Toysoldier wrote:It need really a limit of jets, i played so many matches they just win because of over 20 jets spam!
You can't counter it with ground AA no chance, only you spam same number of jets and hope you win... and i think it's not supposed to be played like that. :roll:

viewtopic.php?f=192&t=56039



actually you can EASILY counter 20 jets with ground alone (AA ground infantry). but a much better way, if you'd actually read these threads is a combination.

you need a multi-tiered defense. You need fighters of your own. you need ground AA units (garrisoned infantry are very effective, though you need double digits . . . which cost about the same as 2-3 fighters). and you need your theatre AA (Patriots, etc with the range upgrades).

You guys have no issue with tank spam I don't know why you insist jet's are so toxic. they're not and they're actually quite fun to fk with if you put in the time to learn how. For example, for the cost of 3-4 enemy fighters put some refineries between your base and where they're coming from. they make a nice, cheap, replaceable, high HP meat shield for the buildings you care about. Add some CWIS to that, some ground AA, some repair buildings, and it becomes a pretty good wall. Of course you can always fight fire with fire and counter spam, just like you probably would with tanks. I've said it before, but not deploying all your planes in a line, goes a long, long way to making them more effective.

the game's not supposed to be play by begging for nerfs to anything you can't immediately see a solution to either.

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Re: [Changes for the good] Jets need tuning down

Postby ace40k » Sun 3 Jan 2016 22:22

correct me if i am wrong but isn't the best air defense offered by building (multiple) anti-superweapon structures/units like patriot/antey/skyguard? i haven't seen their effectiveness against jet trains but they are usually exceptional against helis or single planes shooting them down from far away and in a few hits
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