Do you even care about your community?

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AndreB
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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby AndreB » Tue 8 Mar 2016 19:08

Salsifi wrote:Maybe that the "community" (depending on which level you consider the community really starts) is also a bit aggressive and has her part of fault in this lack of communication.

Not really simple to explain some changes as a dev when you think that hundred of posts will complain after...

After considering an old sentence of MadMat "The need of one is not the need of all" or something like that, since they have sold 100000 copies of AoA, we should think that they have a good feedback from all sides of the gaming community to improve AoA for the best.

Just wait.
High Treason was great.
Zero hour has made Generals a legend.

The next iteration of AoA will do the same job :twisted:


This is not an expantion their making.

Its a patch, a complete change in how the base game work's.

See, this is why they should have communicated better what their doing, people are already expecting different thing's. Regarthless of what they release there is going to be backlash due to unmet expectation's, im sure of it.

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D-M
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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby D-M » Tue 8 Mar 2016 20:01

Maybe that the "community" (depending on which level you consider the community really starts) is also a bit aggressive and has her part of fault in this lack of communication.


Coming from you I 'm not sure if you are serious or just trolling.
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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby ZxGanon » Tue 8 Mar 2016 20:04

I agree with Andre. They did the same mistake again. No clear Statement on what is Going to be Released and there you have Hundreds of People Feeling betrayed and Losing their money. It is like the gameplay of AoA....Mixed and totally confusing.
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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby Salsifi » Tue 8 Mar 2016 20:25

D-M wrote:Coming from you I 'm not sure if you are serious or just trolling.


Dear D-M, you are too focused on the past... :roll:

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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby Megiddo » Tue 8 Mar 2016 22:47

D-M wrote:
Maybe that the "community" (depending on which level you consider the community really starts) is also a bit aggressive and has her part of fault in this lack of communication.


Coming from you I 'm not sure if you are serious or just trolling.


Don't know what was this past story, but concerning AoA, Salsifi is somewhat right imo. WE created this situation. Fortunately, i should add.

Given the quality of AoW:HT (Economy, base management, balance, combat, effects) and WRD (the whole battlefield!), the community had great expectations for AoA. For good reasons. And a good part of us, Eugen followers, ended up disenchanted with this title. For whatever reasons, many things went wrong in the game design, were partially finished, or even not implemented at all. We know that, and we simply couldn't accept that.

So of course, we brought plenty of feedback and sometimes the observations were quite rude. The kind of reactions a disappointed community can have i guess. A good part of constructive criticism, a bit of flaming wars, and a few useless offensive reactions...Eugen teams were probably awaiting a reaction, and for sure, they took the hit. This silence is the best proof.

And now, even if we're facing such a wall of silence, not always fully justified btw, we can understand Eugen reaction.

We should be glad to think that they're working hard, even if silently, in order to correct the flaws, implement the necessary features or content, so that they can finally deliver the game we should have had since day one.

Eugen community did its job. Sometimes the clumsy way and we have to apologize for that. The important thing is that Eugen teams heard the screams and are currently doing their. We know that, and many of us are grateful in front of this very professional reaction. Finally, if they show some generosity with the fans concerning the quality of this new Edition, the final content, the price, and keep us posted quite quickly, It could end as a perfect virtuous circle. In any case as a good lesson to remember for everyone.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby AndreB » Wed 9 Mar 2016 04:01

Megiddo wrote:
D-M wrote:
Maybe that the "community" (depending on which level you consider the community really starts) is also a bit aggressive and has her part of fault in this lack of communication.


Coming from you I 'm not sure if you are serious or just trolling.


Don't know what was this past story, but concerning AoA, Salsifi is somewhat right imo. WE created this situation. Fortunately, i should add.

Given the quality of AoW:HT (Economy, base management, balance, combat, effects) and WRD (the whole battlefield!), the community had great expectations for AoA. For good reasons. And a good part of us, Eugen followers, ended up disenchanted with this title. For whatever reasons, many things went wrong in the game design, were partially finished, or even not implemented at all. We know that, and we simply couldn't accept that.

So of course, we brought plenty of feedback and sometimes the observations were quite rude. The kind of reactions a disappointed community can have i guess. A good part of constructive criticism, a bit of flaming wars, and a few useless offensive reactions...Eugen teams were probably awaiting a reaction, and for sure, they took the hit. This silence is the best proof.

And now, even if we're facing such a wall of silence, not always fully justified btw, we can understand Eugen reaction.

We should be glad to think that they're working hard, even if silently, in order to correct the flaws, implement the necessary features or content, so that they can finally deliver the game we should have had since day one.

Eugen community did its job. Sometimes the clumsy way and we have to apologize for that. The important thing is that Eugen teams heard the screams and are currently doing their. We know that, and many of us are grateful in front of this very professional reaction. Finally, if they show some generosity with the fans concerning the quality of this new Edition, the final content, the price, and keep us posted quite quickly, It could end as a perfect virtuous circle. In any case as a good lesson to remember for everyone.


I really am against this notion that act of aggression was such a bad game at launch date. Or even the notion flying around that the feedback from the beta was bad and led them in the wrong way.

It is almost sound's as if the game was uterly broken and an uter failure from a gameplay standpoint. It was not in my standards, i played 552 hours of it, i had fun while playing it, I'am sure a lot of people did as well.

I mean you look at angry joe and total buiscuit, and they did enjoy the game, the interest just wasn't there to get them back into it and do a propper review of it.

And since there was this massive marketing fail in trying to appeal to the command and conquer general's crowd, which clearly didn't enjoy the game, you endup with a massive negative steam review section.

So they now decide to overhaul the game? well fine sure, but they aren't going to win the heart's and mind's of those who wanted a new general's, that crowd is gonne.

The people that watch these forum's currently are the ones who actually enjoyed the game at release, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Sorry if i sounded agressive, but in terms of active player's ,Grey goo, dead multiplayer wise, homeworld deserts of kharak, dead as well, Ashes of the Singularity, cool game nobady playing.

So it's like i have a feeling this is more related to the RTS genre than the game itself, and no amount of gameplay changes is going to bring a massive audience to the game, especially when you stop advertising about futures updates for month's.

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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby tactic » Wed 9 Mar 2016 05:40

A good friend of mine will be near the studio this week. He will strongly try to get in and find a guy with a serious answer.

If you got someone there, maybe it will be good to ask them if they can take a few minutes to do the same.
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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby torinus » Wed 9 Mar 2016 11:21

AndreB wrote:
Megiddo wrote:
D-M wrote:Coming from you I 'm not sure if you are serious or just trolling.


Don't know what was this past story, but concerning AoA, Salsifi is somewhat right imo. WE created this situation. Fortunately, i should add.

Given the quality of AoW:HT (Economy, base management, balance, combat, effects) and WRD (the whole battlefield!), the community had great expectations for AoA. For good reasons. And a good part of us, Eugen followers, ended up disenchanted with this title. For whatever reasons, many things went wrong in the game design, were partially finished, or even not implemented at all. We know that, and we simply couldn't accept that.

So of course, we brought plenty of feedback and sometimes the observations were quite rude. The kind of reactions a disappointed community can have i guess. A good part of constructive criticism, a bit of flaming wars, and a few useless offensive reactions...Eugen teams were probably awaiting a reaction, and for sure, they took the hit. This silence is the best proof.

And now, even if we're facing such a wall of silence, not always fully justified btw, we can understand Eugen reaction.

We should be glad to think that they're working hard, even if silently, in order to correct the flaws, implement the necessary features or content, so that they can finally deliver the game we should have had since day one.

Eugen community did its job. Sometimes the clumsy way and we have to apologize for that. The important thing is that Eugen teams heard the screams and are currently doing their. We know that, and many of us are grateful in front of this very professional reaction. Finally, if they show some generosity with the fans concerning the quality of this new Edition, the final content, the price, and keep us posted quite quickly, It could end as a perfect virtuous circle. In any case as a good lesson to remember for everyone.


I really am against this notion that act of aggression was such a bad game at launch date. Or even the notion flying around that the feedback from the beta was bad and led them in the wrong way.

It is almost sound's as if the game was uterly broken and an uter failure from a gameplay standpoint. It was not in my standards, i played 552 hours of it, i had fun while playing it, I'am sure a lot of people did as well.

I mean you look at angry joe and total buiscuit, and they did enjoy the game, the interest just wasn't there to get them back into it and do a propper review of it.

And since there was this massive marketing fail in trying to appeal to the command and conquer general's crowd, which clearly didn't enjoy the game, you endup with a massive negative steam review section.

So they now decide to overhaul the game? well fine sure, but they aren't going to win the heart's and mind's of those who wanted a new general's, that crowd is gonne.

The people that watch these forum's currently are the ones who actually enjoyed the game at release, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Sorry if i sounded agressive, but in terms of active player's ,Grey goo, dead multiplayer wise, homeworld deserts of kharak, dead as well, Ashes of the Singularity, cool game nobady playing.

So it's like i have a feeling this is more related to the RTS genre than the game itself, and no amount of gameplay changes is going to bring a massive audience to the game, especially when you stop advertising about futures updates for month's.

It was even worse at launch because it was also super buggy and totally unbalanced. Even 1v1 was broken at release. Now 1v1 is OK (balance is OK but gameplay is still slow and boring) but not enough people to play it.

And I also dont' agree with you about Generals. I am a General fan and I am still here because there is still a chance this game turns out more similar to it. Also most of negative reviews came from Wargame fans and singleplayer/campaign players. Then General fans and then Act of War fans.

As for these other games, they are dead because they suck in some ways. GG is still slow and has performance problems, new Homeworld has only 2 factions, costs too much and has not enough available maps (also the name means a different gameplay than what people that like MP look for). Ashes of Singularity is expensive and in early access and again slow boring gameplay which does not bring in MP players. Slow gameplay is mostly enjoyed by people that would play comp stomp, casuals. Those don't even play competitive MP (1v1 or 2v2).

This is same reason why AoA failed. It went slow and boring route instead of fast and exciting route. Generals was fast, and two RTS that are alive today are fast: CoH2 and SC2.

Only exception is AoE2 but I think that is just a classic that had a huge fanbase back in the day and it is still played by those same people just like SC1:Broodwar is still played by lots of people.

I would bet that if C&C Generals received same treatment as AoE2HD it would get most of its huge fanbase back.

Eugene with AoA made a big fuckup here, there is no game like C&C Generals on the market, they just needed to copy it as much as possible without changing the formula much and they would get million sales.

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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby Megiddo » Wed 9 Mar 2016 12:35

torinus wrote:
This is same reason why AoA failed. It went slow and boring route instead of fast and exciting route. Generals was fast, and two RTS that are alive today are fast: CoH2 and SC2.

(...)

Eugene with AoA made a big fuckup here, there is no game like C&C Generals on the market, they just needed to copy it as much as possible without changing the formula much and they would get million sales.




I'm pretty sure that in the heart of many Eugen fans, the perfect place for AoA, was indeed right between SC2 and CoH2 :

- A real Act of War 2 for the economic, resource, base building and unit construction systems, for the exhaustive usage of terrain and map design, leading to a tactical gameplay : a reasonable amount of units on the field even if the population stays infinite, squared formations with top notch controls, a punchy and perfectly balanced gameplay where all the units have enough HP and abilities to be useful and dangerous all game long, allowing myriads of viable strategies and combinations.

- And the legacy of Wargame to give some depth to the battlefield : Realistic ranges, ROF, armors, firing authorizations (ATGMs locking on infantry :roll: ), dispersion, abnormal statuses...painlessly implemented over this punchy gameplay to combine a fast pace with a good combat technicality...

Maybe i shouldn't, but still hoping that for AoA. Strongly. Jeez, they could have taken all the old mechanisms from AoW, the said ones from Wargame, and mixed them in the IrisZoom engine. Would have been a million seller. Eugen is so good at creating this sort of technical gameplay with a good amount of micro...

That's why i don't understand this macro-oriented approach, or why it was advertised as a spiritual successor of C&C in the first place : Maybe for the "contemporary war" design, or to benefit from this legendary banner, but to my sense it was a mistake. Innovation is good for sure, but they didn't have to abandon their zone of confort and their own legacy.

And to answer to AndreB (it wasn't aggressive, no problem mate :)), i understand your point of view, but plenty of us never considered that AoA was a total failure. At the opposite. It has a great potential, it is a very interesting basis. But it could have been so much better...the game was launched months too early, and it was not entirely eugen's fault i guess.

Anyways, the new Edition is around the corner, we'll see how the things stand...
Last edited by Megiddo on Wed 9 Mar 2016 12:53, edited 2 times in total.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Do you even care about your community?

Postby torinus » Wed 9 Mar 2016 12:48

Megiddo wrote:
torinus wrote:
This is same reason why AoA failed. It went slow and boring route instead of fast and exciting route. Generals was fast, and two RTS that are alive today are fast: CoH2 and SC2.

(...)

Eugene with AoA made a big fuckup here, there is no game like C&C Generals on the market, they just needed to copy it as much as possible without changing the formula much and they would get million sales.



I'm pretty sure that in the heart of many Eugen fans, the perfect place for AoA, was indeed right between SC2 and CoH2 :

- A real Act of War 2 for the economic, resource, base building and unit construction systems, for the exhaustive usage of terrain and map design, leading to a tactical gameplay : a reasonable amount of units on the field even if the population stays infinite, squared formations with top notch controls, a punchy and perfectly balanced gameplay where all the units have enough HP and abilities to be useful and dangerous all game long, allowing myriads of viable strategies and combinations.

- And the legacy of Wargame to give some depth to the battlefield : Realistic ranges, ROF, armors, firing authorizations (ATGMs locking on infantry :roll: ), dispersion, abnormal statuses...painlessly implemented over this punchy gameplay to combine a fast pace with a good combat technicality...

Maybe i shouldn't, but still hoping that for AoA. Strongly. Jeez, they could have taken all the old mechanisms from AoW, the said ones from Wargame, and mixed them in the IrisZoom engine. Would have been a million seller. Eugen is so good at creating this sort of technical gameplay with a good amount of micro...

That's why i don't understand this macro-oriented approach, or why it was advertised as a spiritual successor of C&C in the first place : Maybe for the "contemporary war" design, or to benefit from this legendary banner, but to my sense it was a mistake. Innovation is good for sure, but they didn't have to abandon their zone of confort and their own legacy.

And to answer to AndreB (it wasn't aggressive, no problem mate :)), i understand your point of view, but plenty of us never considered that AoA was a total failure. At the opposite. It has a great potential, it is a very interesting basis. But it could have been so much better...the game was launched months too early, and it was not entirely eugen's fault i guess.

Anyways, the new Edition is around the corner, we'll see how the things stand...

C&C Generals was not focused on macro. It was more micro. We never did attacks in Generals with mass units like it is common in AoA. You attacked with 1-2 bombers or 5 helicopters or 10 tanks or 1 commando unit. 2-3 Mammoth(Overlord) Tanks could do real damage to enemy and for instance GLA defended vs that with 5-10 rocket buggies and good micro to keep out of Overlord Tank cannon range as rocket buggy would get one shot.

C&C Generals was a less micro intensive Starcraft but it was also very fast and let micro win battles more often than not.
That is why it was so good. It was not as hard to play as Starcraft but fast enough to be lots of fun and had lots of cool and explosive units and lots of options for fun and mostly balanced gameplay.

BTW, all you said above sounds very good and I support it. I am not looking for C&C General 1:1 copy, I just want fun and fast gameplay using current and near future units. Changes to that need to make gameplay better, not slower or stupider like AoA did in its current iteration.
Last edited by torinus on Wed 9 Mar 2016 14:57, edited 1 time in total.

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