Skycrane - unfair advantage

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Spector
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Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby Spector » Wed 30 Mar 2016 08:20

The Cartels constructor unit, the Skycrane, can give a large unfair advantage to the player using Cartel faction. This is most evident on some of the maps where one player can build refineries on the opposing players oil wells because the Skycrane can go over cliffs and circumvent the road which goes through a village that has plenty of buildings which can be garrisoned and a land constructor unit ambushed out of.

In 1vs1 these maps are:
Battle Sight Zero, the oil well on the hill that can be accessed only by two roads. One being right next to the non cartel player and the other right at the bank on the other side of the cliff which means that a land constructor unit wouldn't be able to get there if the player has the roads under control with infantry garrisoned in the bank or building on the other side.

Walk Through The Valley Of Death, the oil well on the hill that can be accessed only by one road. That road is totally controlled by garrisoning the bank at the cliffs base where the road turns and goes to the hill. The Cartel's Skycrane can totally circumvent this road and build the oil well even faster then the player who's oil well that is because of it being past the middle of the map.

A River Runs Through It , same problem.

Many other maps have this problem.
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torinus
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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby torinus » Wed 30 Mar 2016 11:09

True for early game but later they are super easy targets for interceptors.
It would be probably better if all 3 factions had a land based builder.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby AndreB » Wed 30 Mar 2016 14:16

torinus wrote:True for early game but later they are super easy targets for interceptors.
It would be probably better if all 3 factions had a land based builder.


No, otherwise we just make all 3 factions equal.

If anything id rather have the build power of the skycrane be inferior of the land construction vehicles of the other factions to compensate.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby Spector » Wed 30 Mar 2016 14:19

AndreB wrote:No, otherwise we just make all 3 factions equal.

If anything id rather have the build time of the skycrane be inferior of the land construction vehicles of the other factions to compensate.


Excuse me, but what makes Cartel so much better that it deserves a flying construction unit while both Chimera and US have a land unit?
If you don't want all factions to be the same, why should the skycrane be changed in anyway instead of Chimera's and US's constructor units. Chimera can have a hovercraft and the US can stay armed.

Also, just building slower is nowhere near the level of disadvantage as being land vs air unit.
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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby AndreB » Wed 30 Mar 2016 15:35

Spector wrote:
AndreB wrote:No, otherwise we just make all 3 factions equal.

If anything id rather have the build time of the skycrane be inferior of the land construction vehicles of the other factions to compensate.


Excuse me, but what makes Cartel so much better that it deserves a flying construction unit while both Chimera and US have a land unit?
If you don't want all factions to be the same, why should the skycrane be changed in anyway instead of Chimeras and US constructor units. Chimera can have a hovercraft and the US can stay armed.


This has nothing to do with deserve, its faction diversity, to me you made this thread pointing out that cartels skycrane is too strong on the maps you mentioned, and i can see that it can be strong versus the other factions.

So in order to make it worse you can just reduce its build power, make it build slower, or you can improve the builder move speed for the other faction, like i already pointed out in the economy thread.

No need to make cartels builder a land unit, thats just removing cool faction diversity.

The same type of argument can be said about here lie the heroes map, where US can just dustoff into the banks and straight up win the game. Your not hearing me say you should give a dustoff to every faction right? that would just feel strange.

About making a kodiak a hovercraft unit, again it would be cool, only problem is we don't have any hovercraft in the game, so i guess it would be problematic for them to implement that kind of thing.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby Seekerdolls » Wed 30 Mar 2016 16:13

They can't build structure outside of headquarter unless it is upgraded barrack or vicinity of extractors you know

Introduction video stated that you can easily narrow down where cartel expend their base
Sorry for inconvenience :D

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby libbmaster » Wed 30 Mar 2016 16:15

Why don't we nerf the cartel builder to 4 hp like the U.S. Builder?

Then, all you'd need is some rifle infantry (or a single sniper, or a single stinger, or a single U.S. Builder) parked at your oil well to shut down a expansion.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby torinus » Wed 30 Mar 2016 16:32

libbmaster wrote:Why don't we nerf the cartel builder to 4 hp like the U.S. Builder?

Then, all you'd need is some rifle infantry (or a single sniper, or a single stinger, or a single U.S. Builder) parked at your oil well to shut down a expansion.

I hope that is a joke. AA units have long range and already kill cartel kmax and skycrane super easy.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby Apolyon » Wed 30 Mar 2016 16:50

The Cartel openning highlighted by Spector is really an issue versus Chimera first and then US Army. I'll post some replays this evening to argument that openning is very problematic on some maps.

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Re: Skycrane - unfair advantage

Postby AndreB » Wed 30 Mar 2016 17:12

torinus wrote:
libbmaster wrote:Why don't we nerf the cartel builder to 4 hp like the U.S. Builder?

Then, all you'd need is some rifle infantry (or a single sniper, or a single stinger, or a single U.S. Builder) parked at your oil well to shut down a expansion.

I hope that is a joke. AA units have long range and already kill cartel kmax and skycrane super easy.


Yeah they already one shot the skycrane.

So far ive yet to see any problem dealing with cartel though.
As US humvees punish any kind of fast 2nd ref, as chimera a fast puma also deals with their expantions quite well.

The only problem i have is either 2 racks openers, one at base and another at a early proxy extractor, or a super early scorpio rush.

Jackals sometimes also hit too soon but in general i already have humvees or pumas out to deal with them.
Last edited by AndreB on Wed 30 Mar 2016 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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