Eugen please watch this.

torinus
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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby torinus » Thu 21 Apr 2016 15:54

ZxGanon wrote:
torinus wrote:
Uppy wrote:Hi Cyclope :)

without spoiling any patchlog

just not only Javelins ,Viper As Well

infantry in general overshadows others units


most of our games 80-90% is infantry spam from begining to end , we need this addressed

thank you

Play bigger maps and infantry will not be such a big problem.

Than Proxy the damn raxx That's how good players surpass those Boring big maps.

Increase the price of Viper and Javelins too 400$ an let missiles miss infantry.

Increase the overall speed on every infantry and make Vehicles finally stronger.

Infantry is overall better than producing vehicles (blazers get over shadowed by stingers).

Increase the viability of units and bring more Options into the game. The more control and clear counters exist there are less frustrating gameplay Elements.

400$ might be too much.
What I would do is increase fire speed of AT infantry but halve their damage. Make it so that in 10 seconds AT infantry does as much damage as before but it needs more shots to do it. This will let enemy tanks and infantry stay alive longer and get to shoot that AT infantry before it can do as much damage as before.
Because now, they 2 shot most tanks. or 3-4 shot them. Then those vehicles cannot get closer to use their weapons as well.

This on other hand makes it useful to have something tanking the damage for AT infantry (like those higher HP tanks people want to use) so it can do same DPS as before by living longer.

Leave SAS as it is, its trademark will be to be the slow fire but high damage per shot unit.

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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby Megiddo » Thu 21 Apr 2016 16:09

DrunkenCyclop wrote:
Megiddo wrote:Question of realism, yes, and fair balance...Anyways, it's Eugen call, and maybe they could indicate their decision on the matter...if something like this realism improvement is a conceivable thing, or if it's simply out of the equation.


Nope. It's not a question of realism at all ! Since most ATGMs can be fitted with anti-personnel charges, like the Hellfire, Ataka, Metys, Spike-LR, etc ...

I won't spoil the patchlog in details, but don't worry : we worked on the javelin anti-personnel capacity. :)


I'm not a weapon specialist for sure...but nice to hear about the future changes :)

kinda see what you mean about anti personnel missiles, but most of the time those charges are used against bunkers or buildings, so to say enclosed space objects, with charges able to bring a big pressure and heat into those spaces...or they're used the Fire and Forget way, at very short distance, just for the HE damage...maybe like the basic, non upgraded javelin in AoA.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/90m ... iles-0441/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M120_Ataka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K115-2_Metis-M
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(missile)

Always thought that a bullet was the perfect anti-personnel missile in the open, not those launchers having a ROF of 2-4 missiles per minute...wasting one of their precious rounds on something else than a building full of Tangos, or an armored valuable target ;)

Brought to the game, if we consider that infantry can already take damage from almost all sources and type of weapons, the argument was mainly to say that such long range NLOS missiles seem a bit too much against uncovered infantry, and unfair for the gameplay...They often break the possible "natural" layer of counters we should develop with riflemen, snipers or infantry/light mortar units against infantry launchers, or with infantry like the Viper or the SAS against the Spike LR Puma, against the Shershens or the NLOS Guardian for example. and it could avoid the spams of always the same, strong, "multi-purpose" units.

Maybe that's what you're working on, but in this case the NLOS Javelins and more generally the ATGMs could/should have a shorter range against infantry units (outside of buildings at least)...and this kind of "Fire and Forget", direct sight firing authorization at shorter range, with a direct trajectory and enough dispersion/dodge rate to miss infantry, hit the ground and create this kind of HE blast radius only... So to say working a bit more like the Viper, or the non upgraded Javelin, even if upgraded...

Then about the Puma, what would you do? letting the Spike-LR locking and firing against all types of units including infantry, at long distance and without even having sight on these small, mobile infantry targets? nerfing the missile firing possibilities against infantry units, or simply making the Puma to switch to autocanons?

The same for the Guardian and other attack choppers : why not advantaging their secondary armaments against infantry, like rockets and autocanons, with a longer and more "natural" firing range, and overall a better ROF with their canons? That's quite a big work to recalibrate the ranges and counter ranges against choppers i agree about that, but still...you see the problems they have, their short, kinda unfair range against MGs and HMGs...given their physics an their short attack ranges it's really hard to place them, where they should have the upper hand more easily against those units...and as a consequence the differences you have to make between planes and choppers for the AA ranges, or the kind of dodge rates you have to introduce with the chaffs upgrades...

Then there is the LOS system argument and the numerous amount of "transparent" scenery elements...though you already did some tweaks to improve that, it seems.

Anyways, you certainly already know that many units are left as orphans, like the infantry/light vehicle mortars, also the basic infantry somewhere...imho the only "all purpose" armaments should be the "bullet" ones like MGs, HMGs or autocanons...At the limit grenadiers or unguided rockets as well, but that's it...too much powerful units and armaments are "all-purpose"...Maybe that the depth of the counter system and the "coherent realism" of the game could benefit from more specialized units and firing ranges or firing authorizations, don't you think?

Then, many people seem to think the same way...A javelin could certainly be more expensive than a Marine. For my part, i also think that all the price curves for units could be higher to avoid the spams and limit the number of units on the field, and more generally that the HP/Armor levels/power of ALL units could be higher and really grow across the game course.. to have the combat lasting a bit more, to make a real difference between softcounters and hardcounters...and to have a better sensation of "toughness" or efficiency with less units as we go to the tech tree...Hard to say in English, but imo the effects of the counters are not apprehensible enough because the HP levels are generally too low to really notice them, the hit rates/dodge rates system is really unclear, we don't have enough time (HP levels) to retreat, regroup, flank, circle...in a word, fight! Imho we should have more time to develop combat techniques like placement, kiting, splitting or else...i hope you see what i mean. the engagements should last longer with less units involved, to my sense. To put the emphasis on the value of reinforcements, then the snowball effects.

Let's take the time and make the changes or tweaks to obtain a great reboot, that's all we say. You already did great efforts and good changes, keep them coming please :)
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby Opticalx » Thu 21 Apr 2016 20:05

DrunkenCyclop wrote:
atdsutm wrote:AA missiles should also slow down a bit. It is already hard to micro choppers away from danger.


We won't do that, since too slow AA missiles won't be able to catch up with aircraft.

Megiddo wrote:Question of realism, yes, and fair balance...Anyways, it's Eugen call, and maybe they could indicate their decision on the matter...if something like this realism improvement is a conceivable thing, or if it's simply out of the equation.


Nope. It's not a question of realism at all ! Since most ATGMs can be fitted with anti-personnel charges, like the Hellfire, Ataka, Metys, Spike-LR, etc ...

I won't spoil the patchlog in details, but don't worry : we worked on the javelin anti-personnel capacity. :)


Thank you for getting back to us on the subject. I am glad that you have seen our concerns and are working on a solution. If it helps more in the future I will make more video's and get some of the other guys on also to discuss such things. :)
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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby AndreB » Fri 22 Apr 2016 00:50

Man, after spending some time looking at 8-bit armies, this game is the best current RTS that isn't SC2.

Really i don't wanna go deep into it, but i just wanted to say i appreciate the devs dedication to their game.

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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby ZxGanon » Fri 22 Apr 2016 00:59

AndreB wrote:Man, after spending some time looking at 8-bit armies, this game is the best current RTS that isn't SC2.

Really i don't wanna go deep into it, but i just wanted to say i appreciate the devs dedication to their game.

Same for me...even though AoA might not be a good game it is the only decent RTS besides SC2 so... just do something so it goes from a decent to a well made RTS.
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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby torinus » Fri 22 Apr 2016 08:14

ZxGanon wrote:
AndreB wrote:Man, after spending some time looking at 8-bit armies, this game is the best current RTS that isn't SC2.

Really i don't wanna go deep into it, but i just wanted to say i appreciate the devs dedication to their game.

Same for me...even though AoA might not be a good game it is the only decent RTS besides SC2 so... just do something so it goes from a decent to a well made RTS.

I would rather they do something so it goes from dead playerbase to enough players :D

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Re: Eugen please watch this.

Postby admiralzeech » Fri 22 Apr 2016 13:34

torinus wrote:I would rather they do something so it goes from dead playerbase to enough players :D


Well, if playerbase is the primary goal, probably the best option is for Eugen/Focus to take a short-term drop and release reboot as a free-to-play after the beta ends.

If they can attract enough fans of the gameplay, they can try to make money in the future with a 1.5 sequel. (Basically current gameplay, a few new units, and a proper singleplayer/coop/campaign mode of some sort.)

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