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Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 01:01
by Predatorrrr
Opticalx wrote:Just takes 1 or 2 javs as US, few vipers, or an early sas or 2 if u go the duel rax build with chimera( which is tricky to pull off ) But it can work. But as stated the cost to get the invis kodiak + the time it takes to travel to the ememy + the time it takes to build a outpost + the time it takes to get a turret. you deserve to loose if it gets you.

The enemy can build the outpost out of viewing range of your base easily and then construct the turret directly next to vital buildings. This turret can take down buildings with ease and very quickly. You can counter it, yes. IF you expect the enemy to do this tactic OR if you have a force standing IN your main base at this point. MG nests do not counter this. US Army does not get stealth detection before Defcon 2 but I do not think that is the issue. The issue is, that the Kodiak is cloaked WHILE it is building and that the stealth upgrade is available pretty early.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 09:07
by Walker

The Kodiak should decloak while he is building. You don´t need to put it under the Shield Protokoll because the Kodiak itself is easy to destroy.

As already mentioned it costs a lot of (early game) money to go on this tactic. In mid-/lategame u can only
laugh at this tactic.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 11:13
by atdsutm
They could fix the Chimera puma spam build order in a few ways.

-Cheaper outpost price at the cost of lower power output and costlier upgrades. They could even put an increase power upgrade for the outpost.

-Extractor or Refinery providing build radius for turrets only.

-Crusher gun upgrade moved to HQ or Refinery.

-Complete rehash of the builder system that mimick's Task Force Talon's system in AoW. The problem lies with the builder moving away from the build radius just to build an extractor and refinery only. With the old drone system of TFT, you can build a 2nd separate extractor and refinery while still be able to build a structure at the base. This will also make the construction outpost incredibly important now as it produces drones that turn into buildings.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 14:03
by Gnougnou
Gnougnou wrote:Either the kodiak has to decloak to build, or this upgrade need shield protocol.

torinus wrote:I agree, this thing should decloak when building.

Predatorrrr wrote:The issue is, that the Kodiak is cloaked WHILE it is building and that the stealth upgrade is available pretty early

Walker wrote:The Kodiak should decloak while he is building. You don´t need to put it under the Shield Protokoll because the Kodiak itself is easy to destroy.

I think the fix is pretty straight forward :D

atdsutm wrote:-Cheaper outpost price at the cost of lower power output and costlier upgrades. They could even put an increase power upgrade for the outpost.

I think this might be the best solution if they want to keep early humee/puma/scorpio rush. Being able to build turrets next to ref is anti-Chimera-style, so you NEED those outposts for the sake of Chimera gameplay. But your solution follow the Chimera IKEA style and is imo a good one. Turrets should be 900/1000$ with the 400/500$ remaining an upgrade for stealth detection (just like the sight view for Tigres). Plus lowering the price of outposts with the power upgrade just like GDI PP or USA (generals) PP should fix it.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 16:08
by atdsutm
After thinking about it for a awhile.

My verdict will either be the lowering price of outposts with its corresponding price increases in its upgrades and power adjustments or the major shift of building style to Act of War's Task Force Talon style.

I leaning on the build style change even though it is a massive overhaul for Chimera. Hell, this is the beta anyways. Make this major change during the beta at least and before the beta ends!!!

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 17:21
by AndreB
Gnougnou wrote:And what are you supposed to do against someone microing scorpio with smoke ? Nothing. You can't do anything against a good USA/Cartel player. Your pumas don't stand a chance neither in front of humvee+2javelins (450+200+200$ < 1100$ + they are fast). They can still switch to TOW and out range your sentry to get your kodiak+crushers. (your sentry can't be ON the ref so THERE IS a way that is less protected). As I said, Chimera AS to be on a defensive slot, otherwise this faction is worthless against good players. I want someone to prove me that rushing Chimera doesn't work, no matter how the Chimera guy started (SAS in buildings, Sentries, Puma rush).

Same goes for ref protection. If the enemy harassed you in early, he will just have to send an humvee with 2 rockets and blow your trucks on outbased ref cause you just can't make an outpost + def on every ref (2200+1400$....). So now what ? Pumas again ? Yeah ACCEE with more Javelins. Tigres ? You will need helipad+Lab+sight Upgrade+SWORD to make them useful, while they will just need grinches/stingers to blow them away for 200$ each. Namers + SAS ? Ok maybe this is the only solution, but ACCEE+Marines+Javelins+thunderbolts will destroy it. Or medivacs+marines+jav... Against Cartel ? Jackal + Scorpios...

I used to love this faction. Now its just rolling the dice and hope you won't be rushed. I almost never play this faction if I am front line and I don't know my enemies, because if they are good players I am fucked.

I haven't played in a few days so i think gnef probably plays better than me right now, but ill try to post some of what i was doing. Bare with me i know this might be long and a bit confusing.

Ok, so lets just focus on early game, because that seems to be the biggest issue here right? at least id like to think so ill try to adress the sword +shield cost later.

First Early game Scenario
1- Against US, you must go ref, 2 crushers, racks, 2 felins, spear vehicle bay, puma, only after the puma is building you go for more felins towards the bank. The puma overall stays in your base purely for defensive reasons, you can attack, but you risk running into a javelin. If he allins you just keep making puma/felin.
1.1- You have waited a few seconds and no massive humvee allin is coming so the next step is controlling the banks.
1.2- Since you went for a puma you can try to deny on some maps infantry moving by foot towards the bank, but id rather prefer having the puma protecting felins moving towards the second bank, avoiding any pesky humvees.(it works quite well)
1.2- In theory you should be fine now in taking your second bank, but lets imagine he rushed that bank with humvees and marines/javelins, what do you do? you make a prison, and storm the bank with your 6 felins, trust me its a clear victory, you take the bank losing like 2/3 felins in the worst case scenario.
1.3- But!!! lets say he has 2 humvees trying to deny your felins, well your pumas should be clearly superior in dealing with them.
1.4- Well what do do now then? you in theory should have 2 full banks, the awnser is quite obvious go for the third bank. US struggles quite hard in holding banks early on, felin/puma backed up with prison heal defeats any kind of bank defense, (early on).

Second Early game Scenario
1-Against US, you go ref, 2 crushers, racks take the bank support bay, 1 namer.
1.1- This build is giving 0 fucks about your ref, you just go namer felin and take all the banks on the map, if he allins your base you can always have infantry on a namer chasing those pesky humvees.
1.2- Advantages you have namer healing and namer CIWS, you can't really want anything more powerfull for bank controll, and also add a prison heal on top of the namer, you will have 0 losses in taking banks.

Third Early game Scenario
1-Against US, you go ref, 2 crushers racks take the bank, and get a turret, yes i know you are severely behind, but since your bank control is the best from all 3 factions proceed to take the banks in whatever way you see fit, namers, just walking sneaky felins and healing them with prison heal.

Conclusions: go for the banks, ignore refs as much as you can, and spam Puma/felin/SAS as your main composition even vs (ACCE/jav). You don't need shield/sword that fast, if you go shield you can get Neurons they rape US and are cheap(suicide bombers almost), and always get ADS that shit breaks US entirely forcing them to get little birds out, it even denies air units vision. If you go sword terminators are awesome, but that pesky vehicle bay is costly as fuck together with the protocol cost. So delay it as much as you can. Tigre is awesome but only in the late game. Exos take too long to get out, and only consider metal storms for ref killing.

Fourth early game Scenario
1- Against cartel you go ref, 2 crushers, racks, 2 felins, spear vehicle bay, puma, its the exact same opener versus US in the first scenario. Only make felins for the bank after the puma is queued.
1.2-You say pumas are shit vs scorpios, depends if you catch them puma wins 1vs1, and since cartels vehicle bay costs more than chimeras, him allining you with mass scorpio isn't worth it. Prioritize defending with the first puma.
1.3- If you defend early on just take your second bank, and focus on mass puma, i know this is kinda counter productive, but i cannot stress enough that you need numbers to defeat cartel.
1.4- Only mass puma will help in securing the banks and defending against scorpio jackal, also theres very little need in going SAS.
1.5- Your refs will always be exposed so learn to almost forget about them, you can defend when you have enough pumas.
1.6- What to transition to then? sword into puma rockets, after this upgrade is done your the king on the field, plus with sword you get felins with smoke, they rape cartels infantry which is the only thing that will kill your pumas.


Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 18:41
by Opticalx
Do you guys like see a strat that beats you and scream omg its OP every time? Do you even say to the person who did it vs you, hey can we have a few games to see if we can find a counter to this strategy you used? I am willing to put money on the answer being NO.
You play games, see something that works against you and then when you cannot find a simple way to beat it you straight away cry OP.
Now granted there are clearly broken things at hand, and I dunno the Kodiak might be borderline op, but me personally have never had an issue with it. Yeah sure it can build at the back of your base in the fog where you can't see, did you think to yourself right I see he is chimera maybe i'll place 1 or 2 tanks or men around my base just in case, or build a defensive structure in my base to be safe.. A lot of these games I see people not doing simple things like that, which could stop strats like that being used. Also whats wrong with scouting a bit, granted there is no early scout units for any teams anymore but there is nothing stoping you from sending 1 humvee , puma or scorpio into a base on a scout mission early on to see what sort of strategy the other person is using. Key word strategy, people want the game too casual, and I think its makes for a more boring game. Just want the big tank armies against eachother, yeah thats cool but it kills the creativity of strategy! And that is what the problem is with RTS these days.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 19:17
by ZxGanon
Funny seeing people having a discussion about a strategy that is super weak and does ape shit against medium players.

Well there are a lot of frustrating strategies and combinations existing in AoA but the stealthed Kodiak is not one of them.
Sometimes frustration occurs because there is no real control and yes you cannot stop the Kodiak building more shit in your base because there is no early scout existing in the game.

It is a worthless strategy but it cannot be countered completly until you hit a tech that is beyond the 8th minute mark (except Cartel because Cartel is a good faction). Just add an unarmed Scout Recon and it is done...well we all have been crying for that the whole time and it is still not there so w/e.

They want their game to be successful and we just provide some advices how to do it. If they dont fix it it is not our problem. We will just play AoA and if this game dies we just play another game. They lose money and hell is that an important factor.

So it seems Eugen is not interested into having success because they already could have cleaned this game a million times.
I have listed so many things that have to be addressed and features that needs to be implemented (plot twist only 15% of those got addressed).

Control and Options are points a lot of RTS lack nowadays (even SC2) but the publisher of AoA is not Blizzard which means their ressources are limited so in fact:

Do something or stop working on AoA and invest your money into something important because right now you guys are wasting it and every BETA-Testers time.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Mon 25 Apr 2016 20:36
by Gnougnou
AndreB wrote:#BanksForLife

Ok thanks. I'll try this out.

Re: Stealth Kodiak WTF

Posted: Tue 26 Apr 2016 21:07
by Predatorrrr
So for everyone saying this is NOT an issue: Have you ever played against someone who did this after 4 minutes into the game next to your HQ? I do not think you have. Sentinel Turrets should not be able to take down an HQ within 1 minute. And a Kodiak should not stay stealthed while it is building.

If you are a self-proclaimed "super pro" and rush after 1 minute you are fine. If you would like to build a second ref first (and dont keep 4 javelins next to your HQ) - like 98% of the players do - you are not.