[AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

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Gnougnou
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Gnougnou » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:14

Fab wrote:We all agree with that. But a bit more complicated just to "test it".

If you want to help the beginners, the only true solution is to do what every C&C did : [quoting myself from another thread]

Gnougnou wrote:I just checked.

C&C Tiberium Sun :
War factory : Needs PowerPlant + Barrack + Ref

C&C Tiberium War :
War factory : Needs PowerPlant + Ref

C&C Generals :
War Factory : Needs PowerPlant + Ref

C&C Red Alert 2 :
War Factory : Needs PowerPlant + Ref + Barrack

Meanwhile on AoA :
War Factory : Nothing, or a powerplant that builds in 2 secs.

+ Faster infantries.
+ Unarmed recon units.

With that :
- Players will tend to use infantries instead of tanks in early game to take map control. New players will have LARGELY enough time to make sentries in their base to protect against early infantry rush.
- No humvee/puma/scorpio early 2mn-rush anymore, thus this new patch turret no needed anymore.
- Decent players will be able to scout while not being able to harass at the very beginning.
- In overall everyone is happy except people that are VERY VERY into 2mn-rushing games. Yes, I do rush myself, because this is so fucking viable, but trust me, I hate to do it. But if you don't know your opponent, this is better to rush that to turtle. In this AoA Reboot, turtling at the beginning is only viable if you know your enemy will do it too.
- Games will be a bit longer thus more interesting in overall.

As I said plenty of times : In the old AoA, rush was not such a problem because you could switch between ressources to protect your base and make units. Cartel and USA were both into oil+alu thus a reduced oil cost for units, allowing them to make bunkers/arty AND units with oil. Chimera was even splitted between alu for teching up + outpost + sentries and oil for pumas & stuff. Now with the new AoA we can't multitask our ressources like this so we have to either protect the base with turrets that can be dodged, or rush and get trucks+builders+scouting. The choice is easy to make, leading almost all good players to rush, whoever is against them.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby pathatas85 » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:27

+ Faster infantries.


infantry speed is nice. I think it should be more expensive or less powerful

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Megiddo » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:31

Sure, building dependencies or prices could also use some tweaks, that's clear.

But honestly, this is not the major problem i think. The more i test different openings, the more i think that these opening build possibilities are somewhat balanced between the factions...For example, where the US or Cartel factions can go with a handful of cheap Javelins and Vipers, along with a vehicle, Chimera can open with the first ref directly, or a bit after, and go for almost 3, cheaper barracks openings, allowing better production capacities with more production lines...compensating the relative but coherent slowness of infantry units...Maybe specially since the last patch and the javelins nerf...

Price curves and overall HP levels of units are more at stake, at least from my point of view...
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:42

+ Faster infantries.

+1
You can still transport your infantry with ACCE and co. but having infantry that is able to walk faster than an inch per minute would enable more options in the meaning of flancking.

Increasing the HP of Vehicles would enable more direct and combat orientated gameplay.

Reffinery as a tech requirement for Vehiclebays would nail it.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Megiddo » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:53

ZxGanon wrote:
Increasing the HP of Vehicles All units in a proportioned manner, to keep a fair balance between all strategies would enable more direct and combat oriented gameplay.



Fixed that for you ;)
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby ZxGanon » Fri 29 Apr 2016 13:58

You really wanna increase the HP of infantry? Infantry at the current state is broken (as US and Cartel I just spamm them with no end and use Vehicles as support I even proxy raxx and just rofl stomp). Even though Javelins finally got more specified hard counters against Vehicles still they destroy because of the mindless spamming (I just dont give a fuck because they cost nothing).

I woudl like to see Vehicles taking several shots from Javelins without even flinching (because they cost so much in comparrison). Would be an easy way to not touch the cost of infantry while increasing its speed and Vehicles getting a fat Tank role.
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Megiddo » Fri 29 Apr 2016 14:11

To my sense all units deserve to have better HP levels. Along with higher prices. One without the other lead to what you say i agree.

It's a matter of scale, of proportions. All units should cost 1.5 or 2x more, but have 1.5 or 2x more HP. with higher curves as we go to the higher tiers and the best armored units i agree, to have this "tanky feeling" fully rendered (example, with a more expensive, more durable and more powerful stock Abrams compared to the stock Thunderbolt). or sub-curves in the same tier, for example a javelin more expensive than a Marine. If you only advantage certain types of units you break the current balance, and you also don't prevent the spams, so, at the end, you don't improve the depth of combat or the duration of the engagements. Such global tweaks could at the same time help the newcomers, because they will find a more accessible gameplay, with more progressive counter effects and combat developments, for example at early game to have more progressive interactions between rush and defense, and the good players will also benefit from that because such tweaks will also advantage a deeper micro where the combat techniques and the skill will have a more significant meaning. As well as the tech choices, production cycles and reinforcement timings.

We can clearly see that the income levels are almost always quite confortable anyways, quite early in the game course. pretty much as soon as the second ref is built btw...the oil fields particularly, refineries or harvesters don't cost much, and we have to admit that we often go for the full oil field/ref/all harvesters expense choice quite easily, without much hesitation in front of the prices...even when early attacking in the meantime...

Reinforcing a frontline or a scuffle progressively, and so obtain better and more progressive snowball effects, could really be more interesting for everyone than engagements ending in 5 seconds with weak and spammable blobs of units. That's really a strong feeling i have concerning AoA since last year and the first beta phase. the gameplay time ratio between production/base management and combat could really use such tweaks. For now they feel kinda "disconnected" or "desynched" if you want...One of the main strategic appeals of a RTS is here, precisely because the player will have the time to feel the combat developments, leading him to precise counter decisions and build choices. This aspect is not enough significant with the combat part. Here, we don't really have to make a hard choice between fast attack vs fast expand for example. The "feedback" we take from the battlefield through scouting or combat, the combat developments themselves overall, and finally the reinforcement cycles are too quick to really feel that it could prevent you from teching or expanding. Result : there are less meaningful strategic choices, Tiers/counter relations or developments, but more a simple continuity in the game course.

Sometimes the tech trees of the factions don't really help from this point of view...for example with the cartel easier developments with less buildings, or the place of some units like the Punisher or the Jackal in the game course, i also think about the Tiger (more generally the place of the Chimera Helipad) or some transports like the early availability of the powerful Superhind (compared to the very late and certainly underused Vextra for example)...The Attack choppers hit the battlefield really early imo and they're somewhat nerfed compared to the advantage and firepower they could bring a bit later (though i understand the current placement and utility of all those units)...But yeah, Eugen teams already made some good improvements and efforts on that part. More are certainly to come undoubtedly.

Where SC2, for example, has little maps and nervous, quick units able to cross the battlefield in a blink, with plenty of strong abilities to force the player to take the fights with caution, AoA has just the opposite. large maps and some pretty slow units, almost without any abilities. Though i personally like this "coherent realism", for example with slow moving infantry units...To my sense, the best suggestion seems clear : advantaging a more progressive, more "persistant" battlefield and multi-tasking all over the map, along with simultaneous base management and significant strategic choices, thanks to higher prices AND higher HP levels.

Finally, the skill on the field should make the difference way more, or at least in a more balanced manner, during the engagements. Currently, if the first contact is, or isn't in your favor, there is too often no way to return a situation, even with better skills. Currently the pure numbers relations, the brute production capacities and the asymmetrical treatment of the factions are mainly opposed on the field, the combat ends too quickly, which is leaving few space for the players skill and inventiveness.

As always, just speaking my honest mind to give some frank (and long :)) feedback, nothing more... btw it was one of the core subjects we discussed about during the week, in this other thread(and other ones) :

viewtopic.php?f=192&t=56606&start=100
Last edited by Megiddo on Sat 30 Apr 2016 03:17, edited 12 times in total.
That's the saddest part of the story. I was getting used to think, after nearly three decades of its existence, that the word "Strategy" was the main cornerstone of the RTS genre and golden age.

pathatas85
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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby pathatas85 » Sat 30 Apr 2016 01:17

Did you have problem with connection ???
after new update, I was disconnected 2 times and other players too, almost every game is someone disconnected. Connection lost

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby AndreB » Sat 30 Apr 2016 12:24

I think this might have been a consequence of us complaining about humvee rushes together with cap killing newbs.
Me and ganon did display an overpowered usage of them in teamgames and in 1v1.

I guess iam glad they watched those replays, or came to the natural conclusion something had to be done.

But the solution seems like an overkill. The game currently is fairly unbalanced with some factions clearly having the better turret, and the fact you can sell it to rush harder is a problem.

So while it might have solved some of the rushing, it introduced a balance problem while reducing a bit the effectiveness of allins.

After thinking a bit on this id rather have you start with a couple infantry and having the HQ have 2 spots for infantry. This way you have a choice of playing defensive or aggressive towards the banks.

option 1, just riffle infantry.
Cartel could start with 2 contractors = 300 cost
Chimera could start with 2 felins = 500 cost
US could start with 2 marines = 400 cost

(Just to have the same balanced economy if you decide to go for the banks)

option 2, crazy and obviously unbalanced, but it could be fun to experiment with the idea.
Cartel could start with 2 contractors + 1 viper, 150+150+200 = 500
Chimera could start with 1 SAS = 650
US could start with 2 marines + 1 javelin = 600

e.t.c..

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Re: [AoA Reboot Beta] Patch v.390 ... + NEW MAP

Postby Uppy » Sat 30 Apr 2016 12:39

The Problem with this idea while it's great

riffle infantry wont do any damage to humvee all in and if you decide to give rocket infantry chimera has none

so i actually don't know about giving chimera sas units early on

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