Any chance of eugen doing a wargame from musket or ancient era?

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Re: Any chance of eugen doing a wargame from musket or ancient era?

Postby Desaix » Sat 17 Feb 2018 16:31

Destraex wrote:General Desaix where is this list of games and content Eugen is doing over the next few years. I am interested in whether their are plans to expand SD44 to the eastern, italian, african and pacific fronts?

You should ask MadMat not me, I Was not talking about Eugen, but about the whole market of coming PC games, nothing about new tactical napoleonic games.

And let me disagree about what you wrote about Total War. It offers amazing modding capabilities and if you take time to install my HB historical battle series for NTW you will understand that engine is still the best immersive experience and with some house rules you can have a decent recreation of a napoleonic battlefield with hidden movements, delays, reinforcements. You don't need to move 200k models to recreate a realistic napoleonic battle, scaling down dimension still works fine. The main problem is that TW engine is old, created for fast generic battle working from mega blob barbarian melees to musket warfare, and above all developed on the shoulder of an existing engine with all the cons this means. Anything longer than 40 minutes and with 4 or more players ends up regularly with crashes or desync. No way to reconnect, no way to save battle, no way to assign ungoverned units to players, ridicolous AI not able to mantain a brigade line.

That's why I regard to Eugen engine as a good canditate for a napoleonic warfare simulation, but of course it would need a complete revision to tactical mechanics that would probably result in a big investment of money compared for example to the low (releative) investment needed to make other WWII theatres like Russia or North Africa. For example WWII does not require any AI at formation level, but napoleonic warfare did require a coherency of units belonging to the same regiment, to the same brigade, to the same division and so on. It's not trivial unless you aim to do a direct control of each single unit like total war.

@MadMat: Touching painting there. I live not far from Marengo so I know that battlefield quite well.

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Re: Any chance of eugen doing a wargame from musket or ancient era?

Postby Destraex » Sun 18 Feb 2018 02:52

Desaix are you saying you think total war maps are large enough to simulate not just the battle but the movements that bring the troops to the battle? Total War really needs an interum strategic layer that basically makes it Eugen's wargame in terms of gameplay. Otherwise with total war maps, any sensible person pretty much knows where the enemy is likely to be and some people do not even move from the start. In reality battles such as waterloo where the british and allies say on a hill were the result of careful recon and planning, protecting a vital route etc. In total war sitting is the result of knowing the enemy from the start is just over the hill in a line just like you.

Desaix are you also saying that you think

I thought their engine was up to engine3, warscape for graphics? Are you saying they are still using the same underlying code. They made a big deal about updating to a new engine a few games back. It looked fine in shogun, but since then has been horrible graphically at ranges other than very close.
This graphical engine, warscape, although good up close, really ruined the immersion for me at command distances. I cannot see a damned thing. They all just look like black blobs. Where in ultimate general , probably because of it's simplicity of graphical style, the units are easy to see and enjoy watching.

Having said all of this. Napoleon total war was my favourite total war game and I have been playing them since shogun1. I loved them to death until just after shogun2. I think this is when warscape made the battles I used to enjoy not worth playing anymore and thus the new management heavy strategy interfaces less fun, as they made the strategy game more of a balancing act than a true reflection of how a ruler ruled. You also have things the game had removed, such as formations that hold formation, instead they went for a blob mechanic, which should have been left for the barbarians and less disciplined units to make points of differentiation. I understand they have tried to fix this, but it is still worse than previous games.
Instead of adding supply, mixed weapon units and realistic features to the strategy map they threw in some catastrophic events and penalties programmed to hit you if you "do to well" mechanics and I have not really bothered to play through Rome2 more than once. Charlemagne is the only campaign I have played since. I guess I like to get to a point when their is actually peace in the land. Squalor iirc was the old mechanic which prevented that, but now their are many more.
I will get around to finding the time again and testing it with a new PC. But for now I rather hope Eugen come to the rescue with something fresh and more realistic. Depicting the movements between strategy and micro unit total war layers.

I think you are right, total war is just an old game engine which is now too big for its own weight and has not really added any meaningful tactical or mid level strategic mechanics and instead has gone backwards in fact. Their are a lot of cool looking features like testudo, but they are made not to work well I am guessing for gameplay purposes. Mods do go a long way, but a lot is also locked from modders in the newer games?

They are now top heavy with management and marketing I assume. Because the game is much more populist and much less for wargamers than it used to be. I used to dream of a tabletop replacement in a computer game. One that shed the restrictions of the tabletop. Scourge of war is the closest I have seen. But it is also the most clumsy and most horrible looking.

Eugen have done a great job with their wargame series. It's a light wargame that is still vastly more complex than any physical tabletop wargame and can be played with multiple friends. It fixes joke or troll spam deck builds by restricting cards to set numbers for each division, while often in total war multiplayer you get players spamming. Horse Archer spam being a good example of a game that will end up in stagnation.

P.S. I used to play a bit of napoleon total war 3 by lordz. That was good. But the maps still felt like you could not miss the enemy really.

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Re: Any chance of eugen doing a wargame from musket or ancient era?

Postby Desaix » Mon 19 Feb 2018 15:20

Well, hidden movements were not that important on a napoleonic battlefield if we talk about single battles, of course if you put a strategic campaign level that is another matter. Still with NTW3 mod you can have a sort of hidden movements to mask distant movements. It's not based on real LOS so quite simplistic but none the less it works. I think we all agree that a good napoleonic simulation would need both layers, but if I had to choose I'd prefer tactical battles rather than campaign exactly like SD focus on tactical combat rather than a strategic layer. And unfortunately we all agree that CA did properly neither of them so you get a generic campaign with few posssible movements and a generic tactical engagement tailored for one division versus one division scale with generic musket warfare not customized for the napoleonic period.

Eugen system is a winner because it doesn't sacrifice realism to playability while CA made the deliberate choice to forget realism to increase the audience of players. That's why for example I gave up buying anything after NTW because they refused to even delivering the basic features promised.

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Re: Any chance of eugen doing a wargame from musket or ancient era?

Postby MonsieurAndreas » Sat 17 Mar 2018 15:01

Bonjour a'tous ! :D
Comment allez-vous ?
(sadly that's the only french I do know)

Im new here, and has been a fans of any deep strategy game with realism as important factor. I found that SD 44 is quite deep, but the WW2 setting is not that appealed for me (I prefer any ancient era up to musket era). Is more ancient era idea could still be happening ?

NB : additional question, how is the level of realism - the closest to real life tactics - used in SD 44 and is it affecting the gameplay as well?

Merci beaucoup, mon ami !

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