WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

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RoadkillRodger
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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby RoadkillRodger » Tue 17 May 2016 09:35

I'm shocked that this thread is still going.

@OP or really anybody who is still debating at this point, did you wind up counting the number of people for and against?

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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Fascist Pink » Tue 17 May 2016 11:09

RoadkillRodger wrote:I'm shocked that this thread is still going.

@OP or really anybody who is still debating at this point, did you wind up counting the number of people for and against?


You expect me to bother? Nah mate.

The crux of it is that most people just hate WW2 and think that there'll be wehraboos, gameplay discussion is for some reason a secondary debate. No fucking idea why.

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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 17 May 2016 18:52

DeckCheney wrote:I'm all for that too; but the issue being proliferation of such technologies. In the 80s only the USA, EU and USSR were beginning to deploy 1st generation electronic warfare systems.

No, in the 60s EW systems were being deployed. Hell, the Il-28REB jammer aircraft is from the 1950s (and the CSSR had some). The Yak-28PP saw service in 1970. EW platforms were very much up and running at that time, just not with countries like China.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 17 May 2016 20:02

Xeno426 wrote:No, in the 60s EW systems were being deployed. Hell, the Il-28REB jammer aircraft is from the 1950s (and the CSSR had some). The Yak-28PP saw service in 1970. EW platforms were very much up and running at that time, just not with countries like China.


You misinterpreted what I meant by Electronic Warfare; being strategic and tactical ground based Jamming/Tracking/Interceptors , DEAD and vehicle based countermeasures.
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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 17 May 2016 20:09

KillaJules wrote:It has already been explained in great detail why going back in time leads to more dynamic game play and not the other way around. Having ground assaults actually be feasible instead of camping in woods and using nukebombers as panic-buttons is not "simplistic". Simply stating the opposite is no argument. The more powerful and accurate offensive weapons are and the faster that units (e.g. planes) can respond, the harder it is to attack. This punishes dynamic, offensive game play. CIWS, ground-based ECM/Jamming etc. could help in this regard as well, but WW2/early '50's still offers the best way to implement air combat/air support into Wargame. Aircraft would be slow enough to require fore-thought in their use and they would be weak enough that the're would be no panic-button ground-force eraser'' option. Gameplay wouldn't revolve so much around protecting the super-unit.


Nice biased statement; the issues you've described only exist because wargame didn't scale unit selection properly. Likewise there are many commonplace tools of Electronic Warfare that wargame excluded from its 90s base because of existing mechanics. Moving the time line forward allows for EW tools from all modern militarised nations.

I'm not really interested in hearing; "early era cold war is better for me because gameplay is slower and easier to comprehend".
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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Xeno426 » Tue 17 May 2016 20:54

DeckCheney wrote:
Xeno426 wrote:No, in the 60s EW systems were being deployed. Hell, the Il-28REB jammer aircraft is from the 1950s (and the CSSR had some). The Yak-28PP saw service in 1970. EW platforms were very much up and running at that time, just not with countries like China.


You misinterpreted what I meant by Electronic Warfare; being strategic and tactical ground based Jamming/Tracking/Interceptors , DEAD and vehicle based countermeasures.

No, I think you just don't know what electronic warfare entails. Tactical jamming and DEAD became big in the late 60s (thanks Vietnam). Maybe not as sophisticated as more modern systems, but they already existed and were used then.
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby DeckCheney » Tue 17 May 2016 21:52

Xeno426 wrote:No, I think you just don't know what electronic warfare entails. Tactical jamming and DEAD became big in the late 60s (thanks Vietnam). Maybe not as sophisticated as more modern systems, but they already existed and were used then.


I'm talking about; Misdirecting GBUs with laser optical jammers, misdirecting AGMs/Cruise missiles with Radar Based Jammers. Intercepting Projectiles- Artillery/HEAT/KE/Balastic with systems like the Trophy/Arena/Iron Dome/Phalanx/TOR/etc. Tracking all the above, and using jammers/EMP to disrupt intelegence gathering.

And AEGIS... I'll be dammed if the USA and anything like that in the 60s.
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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Vulcan 607 » Tue 17 May 2016 23:11

Well jamming and electronic warfare has been around since ww2

I hate to use Wikipedia but it's descriptive enough
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF

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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Rabidnid » Tue 17 May 2016 23:37

Vulcan 607 wrote:Well jamming and electronic warfare has been around since ww2

I hate to use Wikipedia but it's descriptive enough
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._100_Group_RAF



Those guys were mean. Send a Liberator with jammers to mask the entire bomber stream, then send other liberators with jammers to pretend to be different bomber streams, or mask 140 mosquitoes flying too high and fast to be intercepted, or 50 night fighters to pretending to be a bomber stream.
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Re: WW2 is the logical setting for Wargame

Postby Xeno426 » Wed 18 May 2016 03:03

DeckCheney wrote:I'm talking about; Misdirecting GBUs with laser optical jammers, misdirecting AGMs/Cruise missiles with Radar Based Jammers.

Can be done by giving ground units ECM, though the issue is that ECM would need to be split into categories if Eugen doesn't want ECM to also affect "dumb" weapons like RPGs and tank cannons. Misdirecting GBUs is still not a sure thing, though the 80s saw Shtora in use for TOW (and similar) systems, again not requiring a massive timeline jump. The vast majority of AGMs do not use radar for guidance, and no ground vehicle operates radar jamming, so that's a similarly moot point. And since most ground-targeting cruise missile mainly fly by inertial guidance, radar jamming would do jack shit to them as well.

Basically, most of the EW stuff could be done in the 80s already without diving into the much harder to balance stuff that comes in the late 90s. There's also a fair bit more actual information on those older systems than on the new stuff. Less speculation.

DeckCheney wrote:Intercepting Projectiles- Artillery/HEAT/KE/Balastic with systems like the Trophy/Arena/Iron Dome/Phalanx/TOR/etc. Tracking all the above, and using jammers/EMP to disrupt intelegence gathering.

Arena would be death to nearby infantry. And EMP to disrupt intel gathering? Seriously? Those systems intercepted and shot down incoming rounds, they didn't jam them.
My initial opinion that you don't have a fairly good grasp of electronic warfare stands.

DeckCheney wrote:And AEGIS... I'll be dammed if the USA and anything like that in the 60s.

True, no AEGIS... but so what? It's a naval system. It's also a C3 system to improve battlefield awareness and provide guidance for targets faster and more accurately... almost like what can already be done in Wargame as soon as an enemy unit is spotted...
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CloakandDagger wrote:And you're one of the people with the shiny colored name. No wonder the game is in the state it's in.

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