Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugen

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Operation Ivy
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Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugen

Postby Operation Ivy » Thu 13 Apr 2017 20:23

Hey all,

After today's stream, i felt i had to clarify why the Jumbo is overpowered in its current state and that a small price increase (i expect it to be around 20pts) won't change anything. Please note that i don't account any historical arguments but purely balance related ones. I will also only focus on 1v1 and not team games.

Lets compare the Jumbo to its main opponent, the Panther (D)/G.

The Jumbo:
- 21 FAV
- 11 AP
- 5 Accuracy
- 1000m Range
- 180 Pts
- secondary armament: 2x 7.62 1x12.7
- 2x1 in Phase B
- 2x2 in Phase C

In a direct duel, the Jumbo has to be at (900) 700m to have a chance of 2% to pen the Panther.
It is able to pen any other german tank reliably at 1000m (max range) while the Panzer IV (the next best in line except for the Firefly) can only pen it with a 2% chance at 500m. The best German Anti tank gun (88) only has a chance to pen with a 2% chance at 700m.

Unlike the Panther, there is no command or vet unit of the Jumbo available. However Commando/Vet does not effect pricing.

The Panther:

- (12)14 FAV
- 18 AP
- (240)280 Pts
- (5)7 Accuracy
- 1200m Range
- secondary armament: 2x 7.62
- 3x2 in Phase B (D model)
- 3x4 without vet, 3x1 with Vet 2 and Command, 3x2 with Vet 1 in phase C

In a direct duel, the Panther has to be at 900m to have a chance of 2% to pen the Jumbo.
It is able to pen any other US tank reliably at 1200m (max range) while the M4A3(76)W (the next best in line) can pen it with a 2% chance at 1100m. The best US Anti tank gun (M1) can pen the Panther with a 2% chance at 1200m. The Panther G has the accuracy advantage. However hitting a Jumbo is not the issue, but penetrating is.


Conclusion:

The Jumbo is at a significant advantage across the board except for availability. The availability however is a minor factor in this case, because you will never have enough points in a 1v1 to field even half of them in a perfect scenario. A availability nerf would be recommended anyway.
Unless the Jumbo will its cost increased significantly to at least 280 pts, the problems will remain. A more realistic nerf would be to simply reduce its FAV by 2-3 points maybe even with a slight price increase.
While both tanks in a duel will basically just bounce against each other, US forces have more options to deal with a Panther than the Panzer division has dealing with a Jumbo.


Obligatory inb4 just side shot it.
Last edited by Operation Ivy on Sat 15 Apr 2017 15:47, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby DeuZerre » Thu 13 Apr 2017 20:37

Yet, jumbos die @ ranges in excess of the range you mentioned.

The thing is, Eugen did something great in this game regarding armour (as far as I know. It could have been in Wargame too but with the lethality we didn't notice) as in even if you can't pen, you can still render ineffective.

My favourite example is that of two 37mm anti-tank guns firing at a churchill at long range. They hammered it, which caused it to rout, come back, rout again, and at one point... I got a critical hit : Spalling damage, which killed or stunned some of the crew (temporarily IIRC). Then my guns kept shooting and eventually killed it (Crew killed message popped up).

It was an AP 5 gun, firing at max range, against an armour 9 or 15 (can't remember if it was a basic Churchill or the Crocodile. Yeah, croc in phase A has 15 armour. THAT is broken) and which eventually killed it.

So basically, you don't have to penetrate to kill. YOu just need to either stun/panic lock the tank (YOu have mortars and other tools for that) and or pound it with non-stop firing until you immobilize it through crew getting killed, tracks/engine getting destroyed (at which point it becomes an overpriced pillbox).

Or you can rush it with smokescreens, that works too.

Basically, there are many means to get rid of tanks, and armour isn't impervious to guns that "shouldn't" pen them.

EDIT: Also, we'll see other high armour tanks in the game that have better guns (Hello Tiger II) soo... Nope. I want to see plenty of these babies, because I don't have to kill them to get rid of them.
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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Operation Ivy » Thu 13 Apr 2017 20:55

DeuZerre wrote:...snip...


That goes for every tank though. Saying the Jumbo is balanced because it also is affected by it doesn't make it balanced. Also Tanks are quite good against AT guns if they survive the first shot. Especially when they are in range of their secondary armament, in which case the Jumbo also performs better than the Panther.

I don't know if you can even achieve critical hits without penetrating. Probably only temporary soft crits and nothing major like engine failure or tracks destroyed.

No, you can't get rid of tanks if you can't penetrate them. You can buy time by making them retreat but he won't disappear. Unless you somehow manage to have a unit close by so he surrenders, which is a unrealistic event.

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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby DeuZerre » Thu 13 Apr 2017 21:12

I work my anti-tank guns to work in pairs actually, because of the "first shot -> get shot back at" issue of AT guns. Two AT guns generally have the ability to stun/panic tanks pretty easily before getting shredded (for the cost). For them to get the first shot, I turn off the HE rounds (the AT guns are covered by other HE units anyway) most of the time so they don't trigger on the tank's escort.

The Jumbo is a special case: Its gun is average, its armour is great and its speed is adequate. That being said, it is the only allied tank to have over 15 armour (I don't think there's anything but a jumbo (in Normandy) that is tougher than a churchill variant), the rest floating around at 9 armour (Shermans mostly).

The germans have to guns to deal with all the allied armour but the Jumbo at their max range (Many of these good guns mounted on good chassis, with Pz IV and Shermans being able to pen each other) while the German armour with high armour is more plentiful (Tigers (not in game yet), panthers (Quite tough, very lethal gun, good mobility, prohibitive price, good availability), Tiger IIs (Not yet in game), JgPanthers... Most allied guns are up to AP 11-13 ish which will struggle against all the "big cats" that have high armour AND good guns, the Brits with their 17Pdr are the only ones able to relatively reliably kill these big guys (for now).

The jumbo is fine in the context of the whole faction, especially since they're so few. They're there to be at the forefront and take the shots while you try to push on a 1.5 or 2 to 1 advantage against big boys.
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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Operation Ivy » Thu 13 Apr 2017 21:44

DeuZerre wrote:I work my anti-tank guns to work in pairs actually, because of the "first shot -> get shot back at" issue of AT guns. Two AT guns generally have the ability to stun/panic tanks pretty easily before getting shredded (for the cost). For them to get the first shot, I turn off the HE rounds (the AT guns are covered by other HE units anyway) most of the time so they don't trigger on the tank's escort.


Even if you use 2 AT guns, the Jumbo will come out ahead eventually without taking any lasting damage, while the Panther can get killed vise versa.

DeuZerre wrote:The Jumbo is a special case: Its gun is average, its armour is great and its speed is adequate. That being said, it is the only allied tank to have over 15 armour (I don't think there's anything but a jumbo (in Normandy) that is tougher than a churchill variant), the rest floating around at 9 armour (Shermans mostly).


Its gun is average, but it is good enough for killing everything easily except for Panthers and yet unreleased tanks. Also every Sherman above Phase A has 11 armor. Even a Tiger II will have afaik "only" 21 FAV.

DeuZerre wrote:The jumbo is fine in the context of the whole faction, especially since they're so few. They're there to be at the forefront and take the shots while you try to push on a 1.5 or 2 to 1 advantage against big boys.


The Jumbo and Panther are basically fulfilling the same role in their division. The Jumbo is just better in nearly every way at doing its job as i have listed at the beginning. It is pretty much undeniable that it is way out of line, especially when you consider their role in its division. To put it simple: US have decent means to kill a panther on long range while the panzer division has none to kill the Jumbo. On top of it, it is 100 (!) points cheaper.

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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Medan » Thu 13 Apr 2017 21:45

I really want to see how all the divisions play out before discussing the balancing of units. Jumbos weren't much of an issue in the CBT when you were facing much larger guns.
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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Operation Ivy » Thu 13 Apr 2017 23:22

As far as i know, the current divisions in the Beta are final when it comes to units. No other units will get added. Therefor it is completely legit to already ask for changes in one or the other direction. If a division has no problems dealing with the Jumbo doesn't mean that it is balanced. You are probably referring to the Tiger II. Obviously it has no issues dealing with a Jumbo...then again it costs 200 pts. more...you can get 2 Jumbos for that!.

There are only 2 ways of dealing with the situation: Either buff the Panther or nerf the Jumbo. Eugene chose to take the nerf approach, but isn't doing the needed changes.

Honestly i fail to see how people can even try to defend the Jumbo in its current state when it outperforms the Panther in nearly every aspect and is a whopping 100 pts cheaper.

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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Razzmann » Thu 13 Apr 2017 23:29

Jumbo is in no way worth the same as a Panther G / Bef. Panther.

More expensive? Yes, but not 280.

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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 13 Apr 2017 23:41

Another reason why I want my closed beta infantry division back! Jagdpanther and Pak 43 were so damn fun against Jumbos. :cry:
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Re: Why the Jumbo needs a big change @Eugene

Postby Operation Ivy » Fri 14 Apr 2017 00:41

Razzmann wrote:Jumbo is in no way worth the same as a Panther G / Bef. Panther.

More expensive? Yes, but not 280.


Mind elaborating why not?. Because i fail to see much going for the Panther like i mentioned above.

I would settle with a price of 250 but rating AP higher than FAV in terms of pricing is wierd. Sure 21 armor is only available on the front but that is quite marginal when it comes to pricing imo. The Jumbo also has superb anti infantry weaponry and better side armor (12). With 12 side armor is has more than any Sherman/Panzer IV and only 1 less than Panther D on its front!.

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