Why would you ever use a medium tank?

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DeuZerre
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby DeuZerre » Fri 14 Apr 2017 20:38

If there's something I learned not to bait at again in these forums, it is an argument about a situation. There's always a counter argument to anything.

I'm giving some ways, people can be creative :) There are infinite options, but there's infinite ways of combining them.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby Mukip » Fri 14 Apr 2017 21:05

So aside from that tediously "special" person who wants us all to know that he's so amazing that even Panthers fall victim to his Shermans, we still have the issue described in the OP.

The PzIV and Sherman M4A3 aren't cheap enough to be able to risk too brazenly, but they aren't good enough to offer a substantial qualitative advantage over support vehicles. You end up wanting to buy cheaper and more specialized vehicles on top of your heavy tanks so that you can have an army that is larger and more cost efficient.

I'm sure there's some niches where you might prefer medium tanks, such as fighting Luftlande over an open field (i.e. if your opponent is unskilled player), but they are not your go-to solution for most problems, despite being some of the more commons vehicles of the time period.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby DeuZerre » Fri 14 Apr 2017 21:43

Aw, being an honorary marshal does give me the privilege of being the subject of Ad Hominems from a remaining marshal because I disagree? How cute <3 Where did I say I was "amazing"?

I agree on the Pz IV, it's pretty bleh. M4A3 isn't that great for the cost either as its "upgrades" aren't really that relevant for the targets it faces, for now.

In your argument, you mentions the fact that people want to "buy cheaper and more specialised vehicles on top of the "heavy" (read high something) tanks. Well I agree it's a way of doing things, or you can go for the "jack of all trades", they will lose against specialised units but you will ahve more tools to deal with a situation.

In the Beta VIP forum, I remember saying something akin to this: "a panther is two minutes of income if you take the phase B variant, more than 2 minutes, not buying reinforcements, if you want the upgraded version" (argument still relevant). This means that the Panther is an investment, a great tool but that will make you suffer against an equal opponent that keeps a constant pressure, or unless you're already dominating the opponent you're denying yourself two minutes of reinforcements to help you push.

Many times (I can't say I've faced good players, the game's still too new), I've seen german players be on the backfoot while trying to save up for panthers and more costly units because they didn't pack any "medium" tanks like the Pz IV in their deck and thus couldn't repel cheap, crappy tanks like the sherman M4A1 CMD (One minute of income in phase C) properly, or players (once again, I can't say they were bad or good) that lost their panthers because they lacked support, or these big cats were panicked from artillery, rockets, or hidden in smoke clouds and thus were temporarily useless while I had a tank that's very "meh" with an artillery for the same cost, both units combined allowing for a lot more than just tank killing and open field cover like the panther.

The "medium tanks" that are crappy are the ones that cost above 150 points, they are the ones that don't offer enough for the buck, at least in the current state of things. The 76mm Shermans are meh, the higher price 75mm shermans are Meh, the Pz IV H is Meh-ish. The Pz III are quite good because they can cover a lot of areas on your front as they're cheap and be small anchors, not as bad as light tanks.

I'll disagree with you Mukip, but please, don't attack me personally, I'm not a special snowflake, I'm average at the game, but I still think that the context is not as simple as ""heavy" tanks rule over everything".


TLDR: Medium tanks are just that: Medium. They can do a bit of everything. Some of them are not worth the money.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby captaincarnage » Fri 14 Apr 2017 22:37

Aside from price buffs for the obviously overpriced ones, what does the OP want?
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby [DAY]Topspin2005 » Sat 15 Apr 2017 11:28

Another thing to make medium tanks more interesting could be the speed ;-)

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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby Lord Helmchen » Sat 15 Apr 2017 12:45

Mukip wrote:
DeuZerre wrote:I think that for this game we should use the proper nomenclature for tanks...


Not this again. This arguement was already had when Wargame came out and people were complaining about T80's and Abrams being referred to as heavy tanks instead of MBTs. In the end, people are going to use terminology that best fits the video game (much to the impotent frustration of the nomenclature police).

Éxcept in Wargame pretty much all tanks were MBTs with few exceptions, their stats differed a lot though. In WW2 there was a real difference between light, medium, heavy and infantry tanks(i.a.) and they were to be called like this.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby DeuZerre » Sat 15 Apr 2017 13:44

Lord Helmchen wrote:Éxcept in Wargame pretty much all tanks were MBTs with few exceptions, their stats differed a lot though. In WW2 there was a real difference between light, medium, heavy and infantry tanks(i.a.) and they were to be called like this.

Exactly... Churchill is an infantry tank. It doesn't suit anyone's expectations of a medium tank, and isn't a heavy tank for most people.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby SYSTEMS » Sat 15 Apr 2017 16:35

Im using medium tanks to support friendly units / distract enemys and they are great for some quick cheap flanking maneuver.
Expensive or not, every unit has its pros and cons and its just about how you use them in the field.
Medium tanks can do big damage to the enemy in early phase when used properly.

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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby wargamer1985 » Sat 15 Apr 2017 18:56

I would say, from my current experience in the Beta, that the Panzer IVs and M4A3 Shermans don't need a price buff, but rather the Panthers and Jumbos need a further price Nerf. A lost Jumbo should not be as easily replaced by another as it currently is, same as the Panther. Furthermore, there are some realistic buffs we can give to these tanks which would be more realistic, and better for balance, an additional AP for both the Panzer IVs and the M4A3 76mm, additional accuracy (5 >6) for the same vehicles. And then a ROF and HE buff for the 75mm Sherman.
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Re: Why would you ever use a medium tank?

Postby hansbroger » Sat 15 Apr 2017 19:11

I for one would prefer more M4A1s over the M4A3 in phase B
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