The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Ayreik
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The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Ayreik » Fri 28 Apr 2017 04:37

A discourse on the course of action for the lack of Panzer 4's and the abundance of Panthers. (12th SS)

This conversation is purely on the 12th SS and the ability to field so many kittens, and how strong they are.
The 12th is currently over powered. The amount of panthers and the quality of the units themselves are game de-railing. There I said it.

There should be a drastic reduction in the amount of panthers being fielded, and there should honestly be more panzer 4's used for numerous reasons, but the chief one is that it will bring balance more in line, and historically there were mostly panzer 4's vs shermans.

The panther currently wipes the floor of any allied tank, not only in accuracy alone but ap/penetration percentage. Jumbo is an exception but again the jumbo is weak alone, and ignorable by any competent players whom will direct their panthers to target 76's, m10's and challenger 17pdrs.

The elegant solution is to simply leave the panther's stats (although in all honestly a turn rate for tracks/turret really needs to be added to this game, would solve a lot of balanse problems torvaviesh))))) and reduce the number of panther's fieldable. The gameplay both for and against the 12th. They already have a wargame esque unicorn with the Firefly Phase A, why is that trend continued throughout the phases, with Panther G's into the BEF Panther?

A simple reduction of 1 card of 1 Panther D in phase B (Analagous to a Firefly Phase A). Phase C would have 1 Card of 1 BEF Panther, 1 Card of 2 Panther D's with one Star, and 2 Cards of 1 Panther G. This drastic reduction in panthers still enables the 12th SS to be quite strong in each phase if able to afford the panthers (through conservation or other means) but also promotes the taking of Panzer 4's, the fielding of Panzer 4's and a more condusive gameplay for the allies.

This is not a thinly veiled BUFF ALLIES THEY WON THE WAR REALISMMMMMMMMMMMMMMthread.
The reason for this suggestion is that
currently, the only P IV's taken are command variants in phase B, in good decks.

I would be more than happy to see detailed responses on why this course of action would be flawed. :)

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Ripa' Moramee
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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Ripa' Moramee » Fri 28 Apr 2017 05:32

The allies have plenty of Anti-tank guns that they can employ very effectively against the Panther. 17 pdr and even M1 76mm are definitely capable of taking out one divisions several Panthers.
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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Ayreik » Fri 28 Apr 2017 05:43

Ripa' Moramee wrote:The allies have plenty of Anti-tank guns that they can employ very effectively against the Panther. 17 pdr and even M1 76mm are definitely capable of taking out one divisions several Panthers.



Well you didnt read the thread because it wasnt that panthers were too strong, it that they were too prevelant.

the m10 has a 16% chance to hit at 1200m, with only a 2% chance to pen. The BEF panther is unpennable at 1200m with allied 76's. That's only a 0.0032 percent chance of happening. AT Guns are good and all, 17 pdr is great but still less accurate than panthers and not likely to kill on first shot before it retreats to saftey. Again, this is about making panzer 4's more prevelant and panthers less prevelant.

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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby HaryPL » Fri 28 Apr 2017 07:19

If the Panthers are too common on firld you did something wrong in earlier phases.
They cost too much to be fielded at once in large numbers, you need 2 minutes of income to buy one; and thats further delayed by another minute if during that wait you need to buy anuthing else like recon or infantry. So if enemy is overwhelming you with panthers its only because you are apparently letting him to do so by not causing any losses or pressure on him.
Probably just siting in some defensive position, and complaining that axis armored division in phase C has some redundancy to help them keep up with looses as they push back the map control vs the time remaining till victory points dictaded victory?

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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Cullen's Hound » Fri 28 Apr 2017 07:29

Plenty of weapons that can kill it. They are very expensive. For the infantry divisions advance infantry through the hedgerows and keep it smoked with your arty. With Armor advance 2 Jumbos seperated by at least a 45° angle relative to the Panther and it will show one its side.

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Operation Ivy
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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Operation Ivy » Fri 28 Apr 2017 11:35

Your whole post screams "i only play 2 vs 2 + games".

The game will be balanced around 1v1, simple as that.

In 1v1 the Panther and especially the 12 SS is not a problem and the division itself is one of the weakest in game.

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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby HaryPL » Fri 28 Apr 2017 12:23

Sure as hell that 1vs1 wont be the balance goal. 2vs2/3vs3 is most reasonable and probable one; as it can stretch out without that much deformation for 1vs1 and 4vs4. 10vs10 is not to be mentioned in balance discussions, it just is what it is.

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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Aikmofobi » Fri 28 Apr 2017 13:38

It does seem strange to have 1v1 be the gold standard when teamplay and 10v10 has been a staple marketing thing of Eugen for so long.

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Operation Ivy
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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Operation Ivy » Fri 28 Apr 2017 13:47

Tell me then, why wasn't there a 2v2 ranked function in Red Dragon?

And you could consider 2v2 balanced to some point even though nobody really pushed for it so nobody can really tell.

Let me call it right here. If they add a 3v3/4v4 ranked version, you will see so many abusive/cheesy strategies that it will bury the game mode directly again.

3v3/4v4 is only casual. Have some fun and enjoy it...but don't expect it to be anywhere near as balanced as 1v1, let alone be competitively suitable.

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Re: The Panther Problem and You! (12th SS)

Postby Mike » Fri 28 Apr 2017 13:50

There was 2v2 ranked in RD. Just not very many people played it.
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