Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Pleb Squasher
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Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Pleb Squasher » Sun 7 May 2017 06:58

I want to talk about this division, because it's a stand out choice in a number of ways however it currently seems extremely handicapped.
Note; this isn't meant to be a biased 'buff my favourite division' thread, it's just about discussing issues perceived in the beta :)

This was the first division I picked up, I've tried really hard to make it work but it's very difficult to play. The 17th also had a few strange traits in reality that make it unusual, especially the fact that as a mechanised division, it wasn't really a mechanised division...

So far I've had a lot of people tell me, both experienced players and less experienced, that the 17th is a purely defensive division, it's difficult to use and it's awful for 1v1. At first I doubted these claims, however, almost exclusively playing this division has led me to believe they were right.

The 17th suffers a number of issues. It seems to fill a very strange middle ground in the game, not being particularly good at anything and being outclassed against other types of divisions in certain ways.
Playing the 17th against infantry divisions, results in your being overwhelmed by enemy infantry. Granted, your PzGren are supposedly a lot better, however their high price means you're often facing much more enemy infantry than you can field. Your PzGren are also extremely (and unfortunately historically inflexible) due to their lack of any kind of AT.
The 17th, while playing much like an infantry division, doesn't get the same benefits as an infantry div. Your AT guns start at base veterency. The only upvetted inf you get are the very niche 5 man ambush teams. Matter of fact is that these teams fill an important role for this div, you place them along roads in phase A and destroy anything that comes past (most of the time). Without these squads I dare say the div would be utterly useless, these units still can't carry the division alone, and are almost completely useless outside their basic role.

Combating armoured/mobile divisions also presents similar issues but with other units. Generally the 17th's armoured units and tank destroyers are heavily outclassed by what they go up against. The Marder 3 is a disappointing unit at best, even when backing up Stugs. The Stugs themselves should be good in theory, however they aren't particularly stand out in practice, not to mention their reduced firepower (only one MG) also reduces their effectiveness vs infantry.

The only units which really pull their weight seem to be the rocket launchers in this division, they are incredibly effective.

I think there are two main issues effecting this division, namely design flaws and no speciality (which I mentioned above).
Design flaws
If this division is supposed to be defensive, as I've been told and as seems to be the case, then the biggest issue is that it doesn't work in this role. The Division does not have the necessary tools to make early gains in phase A, which it can then consolidate later in the game. In phase A, the division seriously lacks plentiful light AT support in vehicle form.
- AT guns: the divs AT guns, particularly early ones are at base veterency, as such they can't be relied upon to protect your infantry or even themselves form light vehicles.
- Stug III: The only unit that gives this div any punch early game. This unit is alright, however it's hardly amazing. Almost all phase A AT guns can pen it no problem. Once the Stug dies (and it usually will as it does all the heavy lifting in phase A, exposing it to enemy fire a lot) then you're extremely vulnerable.
- Infantry: While you get decent options, their pricing means you are very easily overwhelmed by cheaper, more cost effective options. Also none of your general infantry options come upvetted, only the 5 man ambush teams which fall out rapidly after phase A.
- Stugs: These perform mediocre at best, they don't give you the edge in any kind of situation as they're literally just tanks with no turret and less MGs. Come with veterency but still aren't anything special.
- Terrible phase A: Bad AT gun inveteracy, reliance on the single Stug and almost a complete lack of any mobile, light vehicle support really hurts this divisions. Seriously, they don't even get their pumas in phase A while other divisions do? They don't get the 222 until phase B??? What's going on here?
The division doesn't have any distinct flavour or style and thus lacks direction or speciality, seriously gimping it. It also lacks the ability to establish a strong front in phase A, which it can then defend in subsequent phases. The division actually has pretty poor phase A income, and then doesn't gain anything particularly strong in later phases to make up for this.

A few things I would do to help the division:
Stugs:
Buff Stug accuracy/rate of fire or maybe even both. Stugs excelled when employed in the anti tank role and this should be reflected. Also, increase phase A Stug from 1 per card to 2. This is literally the only redeeming unit this division has in phase A.
Phase A light vehicles:
Make the 222 and Puma available in phase A.
AT guns:
Give the divs early AT guns some veterency! They need it!
Specialisation:
Figure out how this div is supposed to play so it can do so effectively!

It'd be great to hear from others or even the devs on how this division fits into the game. I really like the Stugs and the idea of them + inf combined arms, however I might have the wrong idea about this division. It'd be awesome to hear what the flavour of this choice is supposed to be!

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Markenzwieback » Sun 7 May 2017 10:20

Being a 17th SS guy myself (until the 352nd comes back :D), I can agree to AT gun veterancy and another card of elite StuG III in Phase A. Those two are, in my opinion, the most important aspects. The StuG III even more than the anti-tank guns really. When you loose the one you got, Phase A becomes very difficult. Keep the StuG IVs the way they are, at most a small price buff is all they need.

The SdKfz 222 in Phase A would be amazing, but I won't count on it ever getting there. Pumas could be nice, but aren't really needed early on.
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby CUALEB_Operator » Sun 7 May 2017 11:03

I'd agree with the op on most points. Both the 17ss and the luftlande lacks offensiveness. The 17ss is even less mechanized than the 15th scottish and 2ID, quite ironic that it got a half-track icon in the title but if i remember correct the only half-track in the entire deck is the 173mm FO vehicle.

However I haven't notice much on the low veterency of the ATs, a 15pts investment on a command team compensates the issue. The 17ss got both Pak38's and Pak40's in phase A, maybe not impressive compared to 2ID but still not too bad. But I do wonder why the Pak40 does not have 1200m range, since the vehicle mounted versions (marders and S307) are all 1200m.

Also the pak43 suffers from having no reusable towing vehicle. 2ID's M5 and Scottish 17pdr both have an option to come with a MG-equipped tractor, while besides the 50pts supply truck the 17ss couldn't even spare a infantry half-truck. The heavy ATs move extremely slow and are guaranteed retaliated, they rely heavily on vehicles to re-position.

I concur that there's no point of holding the 222's until phase B. The 221's are outstanding vehicles at phase A dealing with allied half-tracks and APCs, but too bad they don't even have a mg to fan off some infantry. It might be an interesting tweak to move the command 231 in support tab to phase, too.

Thanks to the last update the 81mm crew are finally viable, making the deck capable to deploy some proper smoke.



Almost forgot, yes the PzGrens are painfully overpriced. Not only they're cost ineffective in infantry combat, the germans have no other cheaper options for filling the line and recon by force. Vehicles noew play a bigger part in damage dealing to infantry than before (especially in urban fights), the extra MG42 does not help to absorb fire. At least a 5pts price buff is welcome.

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Operation Ivy
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Operation Ivy » Sun 7 May 2017 18:58

The 17th being the best axis division by far in 1v1 says quite a lot about the current state of axis divisions.

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KampfKeksKrieger
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Sun 7 May 2017 23:04

Thanks for your interesting opinions.
Maybe you should start with this guide here, before you go on to judge the 17. PzGren division.

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/steel-divi ... yer-guide/

Nobody is perfect ;)

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 8 May 2017 00:05

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:Thanks for your interesting opinions.
Maybe you should start with this guide here, before you go on to judge the 17. PzGren division.

https://www.paradoxplaza.com/steel-divi ... yer-guide/

Nobody is perfect ;)

Thank you for your Interesting post. Are you always this patronizing?
Maybe you should start with this guide here, before you go on to judge other peoples post without bringing forward a single coherent argument.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Fuck_Off

Nobody is perfect ;)
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KampfKeksKrieger
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Mon 8 May 2017 00:08

I start to get a clue of how you get to loose with the 17.Pzgren Division!
You use the wrong guide!

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Markenzwieback
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 8 May 2017 00:33

Its not fun insulting people when they don't even get that they are being insulted. :(
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Fade2Gray
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby Fade2Gray » Mon 8 May 2017 02:07

Markenzwieback wrote:Its not fun insulting people when they don't even get that they are being insulted. :(

I thought you gave him once helluva sick burn at least.
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Think you have what it takes to enlist into the military? You sure about that?

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KampfKeksKrieger
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Re: Let's talk 17th PzGren division

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Mon 8 May 2017 02:18

WHY is everyone chasing me?

I thought you might change your mind about the 17. PzGren Division if you find out how the cover system works :lol:

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