Air to Air Combat

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kvnrthr
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Air to Air Combat

Postby kvnrthr » Tue 9 May 2017 07:52

What do you think about air to air combat in this game?

IMO it hasn't improved much from RD days. We end up having a system that is very micro-heavy, but really doesn't model air combat accurately either. I personally don't find it fun at all.

This is what I see as the main annoying characteristics of air combat:

1. Rigid maneuvering. Up front, 2 planes just joust at each other then turn away, after which the more maneuverable plane maybe gets on the tail of the other guy and has the advantage.

2. Instantaneous air spawn at perfect location. Wait until the other guy starts evacing or is moving with his tail to the airspawn, then spawn a fighter behind him instantly for risk-free interception. Yeah, you try to get behind someone else in fighter combat, but not through teleportation.

3. Evac causes quite strange behavior. An evacing fighter somehow decides the best course of action is to fly straight back while ignoring the fighter chasing him? He's just going to zone out without taking any defensive measures and pray that the bullets don't hit?

4. Ground AA affecting air to air combat. Flak is a threat in low level ground attack but I've never heard of fighter pilots having to dodge ground fire while fighting other planes.

5 (?). Panic system feels out of place. The concept of suppression and falling back makes sense in ground combat and also in ground attack (planes turning away due to heavy fire) but I just can't make sense of what role it would play in air to air. Not 100% sure on this though.

I really just groan every time I try to manage an air to air engagement, especially with large numbers of planes. It's unwieldy and I wouldn't be sorry to see it abstracted out into a die roll. But the models are in and it's what we're stuck with I guess.
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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby Pleb Squasher » Tue 9 May 2017 12:03

It would seem it's less about micro and more about making the right decision when it comes to aircraft usage.

Baiting people over AA then shooting them down etc, avoiding an engagement all together. Obviously though air combat is pretty trivial when purely air to air, I guess the intention is that there will be more factors in play, spicing things up and providing more options.

I agree that instant spawns are a bad thing though, always were and always will be.

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby Woozle » Fri 12 May 2017 00:43

As to point four, look up Operation Tidal Wave, the B-24s came in at a very low level there (average was 50 meters, which is even lower then planes are flying in Steel Division) and were fighting ground based AA and fighters at the same time throughout the battle. This sort of thing wasn't a regular occurrence but it's not at all unheard of.

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby CyberianK » Fri 12 May 2017 11:54

I still think speed is the most important stat of all planes as you want them to close in fast, retreat fast and intercept fast.

As for Fw190 and BF109 weren't the late war variants more around 650 speed than 600? Maybe someone has the details?

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby kvnrthr » Fri 12 May 2017 22:50

Woozle wrote:As to point four, look up Operation Tidal Wave, the B-24s came in at a very low level there (average was 50 meters, which is even lower then planes are flying in Steel Division) and were fighting ground based AA and fighters at the same time throughout the battle. This sort of thing wasn't a regular occurrence but it's not at all unheard of.


I think bombers would have to contest both AA and enemy fighters. I'm not sure if fighters would do so however, they could always climb to some altitude and be spared from the worst of it.
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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby Woozle » Fri 12 May 2017 22:53

kvnrthr wrote:
Woozle wrote:As to point four, look up Operation Tidal Wave, the B-24s came in at a very low level there (average was 50 meters, which is even lower then planes are flying in Steel Division) and were fighting ground based AA and fighters at the same time throughout the battle. This sort of thing wasn't a regular occurrence but it's not at all unheard of.


I think bombers would have to contest both AA and enemy fighters. I'm not sure if fighters would do so however, they could always climb to some altitude and be spared from the worst of it.


Alot of fighters are most maneuverable and efficient at low altitude, and would want to draw the enemy down to fight on their level, and if fighters are intercepting a ground attack aircraft (who will probably be flying low), they are going to have to deal with enemy AA while they are doing that.

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby FoxZz » Sat 13 May 2017 17:29

I don't like the air spam in this title, it's even worst than in RD since AA only supress and fighters have to get close to kill. I think that planes availability should be reducced a lot. Especially at this scale.

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby Markenzwieback » Sat 13 May 2017 18:00

FoxZz wrote:I don't like the air spam in this title, it's even worst than in RD since AA only supress and fighters have to get close to kill. I think that planes availability should be reducced a lot. Especially at this scale.

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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby DeuZerre » Sun 14 May 2017 07:44

Basic air to air (and generally air combat) tutorial.

If you have a fighter with low agility (I'll call them interceptors for this), you do not want it to engage in a dogfight. Instead, use an other plane to bait the enemy fighters/interceptors around closer to your lines, then spawn your low agility (and generally fast) interceptor to get at least on the flank, ideally in the rear of the enemy fighter. Once you're slotted on its tail, it'll be short work and there's little the other fighter can do. Planes that are fighters but with a bomb/rocket load can be used like this.

If you have a high agility fighter, you want to engage the enemy in a turnfight, but can also do what the interceptors do.

If you're forced to dogfight an enemy fighter with an interceptor (faster than the enemy but lower agility), micromanage it so that it shoots on a head-on then click somewhere far ahead on the battlefield so that your plane doesn't try to turnfight a better turnfighter.

You generally don't want to send multiple fighters or interceptors at exactly the same time. Delay your sorties to have at least a 3-6 seconds gap between your fighters if you want to attack something that's in the air, this way while one of your planes feigns a dogfight, the other one will be able to slot on the tail of the enemy. Engage with highest agility first.

Spread your (even if it's crappy like the german's) AA net so that you may get a slight edge on the air combat if it turns out to 1v1 with equal agility planes.

Generally, a high experience fighter is better than two low experience fighters, but you'll want to have multiple fighters to do the tactics above: The air war is won by numbers AND quality. Best experience is ideal if you end up over the enemy AA net to survive some of the suppression.

NEVER evac when you're a low agility plane (not just fighters) and you see an enemy just spawned in front of your plane. Wait for him to start shooting at you (head-on) then evac so that you get a bit more time. (exception is if you have an excellent AA net)
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Re: Air to Air Combat

Postby Saavedra » Sun 14 May 2017 11:27

While the air game is not stellar, I think all it might take to fix it is just reducing the speed of planes a bit.

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