A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

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DeuZerre
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A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby DeuZerre » Wed 10 May 2017 13:47

So today, had a 3v3 with randoms on coleville. Since I love the 91. LL for some hipster reasons, I picked it with a different initial build than I usually do: This time, I picked LOTS of Ersatzgruppe, three crappy mortars, some command infantry, and some bad AT+AA for flank defence.

The end result is this:
572410_screenshots_20170510121336_1.jpg
572410_screenshots_20170510121336_1.jpg (386.69 KiB) Viewed 1427 times


And the replay is there under the name "The Meatgrinder" if you want to get the replay or to see the decks.

Now I know the map is very specifically made for infantry grinding. The amazing thing in this battle is that the opponents left, because they had run out of infantry (at least this is my guess) and were therefore going to get pushed back. Hard.

The battle unfolded like this:

Everyone rushes to their favourite position
Before my infantry gets in position, I deploy one (Because the other ones weren't in range due to bad deployment) of my mortars on the estimated road to get into the town.
This makes most of the scottish infantry that was rushing me incapable of fighting. A few volleys later, they get wiped, almost 350 initial points down the drain. I keep pushing and secure the whole town. But since I am very infantry heavy and this is phase A, I can't push outside of the town (note that my deck has no phase A tanks. They're rubbish and a waste of space, except for this specific situation).

NOTE: Specific tactic for urban fighting: Hop from buildings to buildings with one squad with relatively high morale or under commander buff to get close to pinned enemy troops, you'll capture them and save a lot of ammo/time/hassle. It also helps scare the enemy player off in his following engagements

I then realize that my allies are getting pushed back. Since this is conquest, I try to get a tiny bit more ground control by clearing the outskirts of the town. This forced the enemy into spending points to try and get back the (heavily fortified) town. NOTE: This was IMO the biggest mistake they made. Instead of grinding themselves on my very strong defence, they should have instead focused on their advantage in the middle and their right flank.

Since my ally in the middle is getting overwhelmed, I send a horde of ERsatzgruppe in a relatively broad formation (I did a micro mistake there) to scare the enemy off and force him to counter the counter attack, but that doesn't happen and my ally in the middle gets back some strength to get back some small momentum.

On our left flank, I see that my ally has lsot the town but is fighting teeth and nails for the outskirts. It works pretty well in killing off the enemy and holding him there, so I don't send help. The grind stayed there for a long time until my ally used a nebelwerfer which I believe broke the enemy player morale.

Now last point: The air war. Pretty early in the battle, I made a quick attack with a rocket plane to silence some mortars in the middle. This was pretty crucial: US mortars (81mm and 107mm) are a bitch to any opponent, even worse than my small mortars, because they can cover a broad area of the battlefield with great firepower. But the enemy didn't buy any fighter to counter this. So later on, I managed to keep the air war at a stalemate, making some kills, losing some planes, but it was "worth it'.

Small note on my use of the "ducks". At one point, I suicide a duck to get rid of a forward observer tank: The exchange wasn't worth it in theory, but in practice those artillery observers would have crumbled my town so it was a calculated suicide. Sacrificed 200 points I could afford to get rid of a counter to my army. An an other point, I suicide an OTHER duck to get rid of some tanks. That one was dumb, I wanted to use it as a bait to kill their fighters without realising they weren't really ready yet and their AA net had gotten strong. Mistake.

Regarding Artillery Observers. At one point, my scottish opponent realises how hard my mortars have been punishing him: He then uses 140mm artillery (I think?) to silence my mortars. It was a great move, I was too confident and didn't move them. At a later point however he uses the artillery to silence a 35 poitns AT gun and 40 points AA, probably thinking it was a greater threat, and to bombard some buildings: My infantry stayed in the buildings and more or less survived. Note: Always scatter your infantry when you attack a town so that they are all around that city: Offmap artillery, Nebelwerfers and some other tools would wipe your defence if it isn't a defence in depth.

Late in the battle, the enemy tries a last ditch effort to seize back my village. I didn't even micro anything, I was busy doing reinforcements, because I had a deep defence. They were using flamethrower infantry which caused some issues to me, and at that point a lot of the buildings were destroyed and thus were not great cover, but I managed to get out of range of the flamethrowers, destroy some of the supporting units with artillery and AT guns. Flamethrowerinfantry is a great threat to a deck like mine, but they need fire support.

Last note: The AVRE. The enemy had an avre pretty early in the battle that got killed by a friendly 88 from the player in the centre. The AVRE is extremly hard to deal with as the 91.LL and I'm happy its player did a mistake and lost it. Against the AVRE, there's only two solutions: Save 200 points for a phase A Duck, or smoke it and rush it with some AT infantry. Not much else to do as a skilled player will make gaping holes in your defence. Use its loading indicator to get out of buildings pretty fast

Well, that's a wall of text. TLDR: 91. LL is a great division for city fights :P
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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby Saavedra » Wed 10 May 2017 15:50

DeuZerre wrote:NOTE: Specific tactic for urban fighting: Hop from buildings to buildings with one squad with relatively high morale or under commander buff to get close to pinned enemy troops, you'll capture them and save a lot of ammo/time/hassle. It also helps scare the enemy player off in his following engagements


Not only in city fights. I once captured between five and eight 15th Scots infantry units using only three pioniers while fighting over a hedge line. It was pretty much instantaneous and there was nothing the other player could do because he did not bring command infantry. I never want to be in the position he was...

Let that be a lesson to you all. If your infantry is pinned down and you have no support moving up (command infantry to keep them from being captured or some firepower to retaliate), be sure to make them fall back. They are dead if they get captured or if they are shot to bits, so making them fall back is hardly going to play against you.


(Also, I just remembered: I once captured a Panzer IV H with my 3rd US Armored Rifles. The Panzer just rushed into the city and the Rifles shot it once, then it surrendered.)

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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby DeuZerre » Wed 10 May 2017 16:29

Well, the point I was trying to make (not clearly though) was that hopping was slightly faster to get you real close.

In the open, I generally use fast vehicles to move as fast as they can towards routing/pinned units. DOes the trick.
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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby gogopher » Wed 10 May 2017 19:45

91st LL is by far the most OP div in current state of game (well okay i actually think the 17ss is a close second or in the case of my play style superior the 91st rocks)...best inf in game (which includes the 10dollar specials...if i need to explain this u arent using them right)...best scouts...best man-portable AT weapons...best air power...best AAA (omg 2 star 88's with a leader)...best off-board arty...yeah im a 91st fanboy

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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby CyberianK » Fri 12 May 2017 10:58

@gogopher
It still has the worst AA cards overall of any division because it does not get any decent AA before phase C. Makes me never go heavy on air with them because good players can easily have Air superiority over them.

That said the last patch made them amazing. HMGs supporting your Ersatz from behind are great. Early 1200 STUH is insane and the 45 point tanks are great to secure remote areas or counter halftracks. I don't think their OP but they are finally playable.

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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby Mister Maf » Fri 12 May 2017 13:57

I got my rear end handed to me today as 15th Scots by a 91. LL player. They're deffo super good now.
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The 91st Luftlande

Postby Legacy » Fri 12 May 2017 14:50

Well first of all, thx for the new patch which buffed the 91st Luftlande.
However, things did NOT go as i ex[ected to be, NOT AT ALL.
-Thanks to the phrase A Stug 42, the 91 eventually have a phrase which it can make a push. Through out several gameplay, a good coordination between the Pak40, Stug 42 and HS109 is vital (unless u r fighting in the urban area), in some cases i even managed to crush 2nd DB completely. Btw the Panzer III really can not do anything, you r not supposed to rely on them especially when it comes to fighting enemy armour units, not even stuarts. They are just there to buff the morale so do not lose your head.
Unfortunately, the fun stops here. Once the enemy have air superiority, then ur HS109 is WASTED. To make the matter worse, the 91 has no air fighter in phrase A. Not even that, when u move into phrase B, the lack of speed on the BF109s will tell you the meaning of 'pain in the ass' especially when it comes to fighting US air fighters(those are fast little bastars)which they are cheaper and faster, i mean, veterancy is not gonna help u much if ur fighters can not catch up to the enemy ones, but on the other hand, urs will have an especially hard time ecscaping from the battlefields(which is usually how i lose my fighters). Now some may wonder what happened to my AA units, good question, if u could just check the AA units the 91 has in phrase B&C, u will realize that they is really NOTHING can stop the allied air force from raping ur ground units in phrae A&B.The 91 will have an embrassing time fighting for air superiority and its very likely that it will lose. Interesting enough, ur teamates usually blame u for losing the air superiority since u were a former airborne division. Without air superiority, HS109 is WASTED. Without HS109, there is nothing on the ground to stop allied armour from crushing ur ground forces, pak36 and pak38 can not do shit when u r in phrase B. As for that pak40 in phrase A , you just have to try ur ass off to keep it alive while maintaining a constant pressure on the enemy front line or u will be overwhelmed by the M10s, M8s or halftracks. Now about the tanks and anti-tanks, a StugIII and a MarderII as a small group with the support of a leader will have like a 40~60% chance against a M10 which is basically just ridiculous, thats right, you spend twice amout of the points and you dont even have a good chance to go against the enemy. Not to mention the Jumbos, the only thing you can do to stop them is a constant pray that you wouldnt have to face the 3rd armour.
In conclusion, lack of air superiority, lack of anti-tank weapons, lack of effictive tanks and since im complaining about it, lack of methods in dealng with rangers especially when it cones to close range by those assult teams but im sure ill find out some more skill-based approach of solving the matter. In other words, the 2nd Infantry is gonna kick ur ass in urban warfrare, the rest divisions will crush u in the fields and there is really not much u can do to stop them from doing it unless the combat takes place somewhere with masive treelines that are blocking enemy visions everywhere so you can amnush them with ur elite infantries which is the only method i used that was able to secure the few victories while playing 91,otherwise, YOU ARE SCREWED ! Reminded me a bit of red dragon deck in WRD though ...
Here is something that i think that will be able to fix the problems :
- Air fighter straight from phrae A
- Better AA units in phrase A&B
- this might be unbelievable to ask, but is it possible to have BEF Stug III straight from phrae A because now it really relys on HS109 and some luck with pak40 if u run into M10s or M4A1s. Meanwhile, the 2nd infantry has better tanks, anti-tank guns and anti-tank vehicles with the 15th with way better tanks in phrase B&C and more access to stuarts than the 91 has to Panzer III. Access to Stug III will buff its abilities in phrase A since its the only phrase which it can push
- The rightful 1200 gun on both Stug III and StugIV since the JagdPanzer IVs have(those are the same guns anyway) .
- Access of pak38 in phrase A and access of pak40 in phrase B with low veterancy
- Since its already an infantry division, more avilable tanks ?
Right now the 91 Luftlande is a serious mongrel division as it is discrebed in the game but it can not do what the airborne divisions are good at and unable to be treated as a n infantry division either.
I tried my best to avoid saying ' buff 91 !!!' but look, its been the third time i remake my 91 deck and have my ass raped by the enemy the entire day from sevral players with multiple times each even some are probably rookies(u can tell when they have a dozen of halftracks ambushed and destoyed by u but they just replace them with another dozen and eventually overwhelm u) for the third time which im just literally tired it.
The feeling of literally doing everything you can with everything you got but it doesnt even make a diffeeence.
Last edited by [EUG]MadMat on Fri 12 May 2017 15:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with existing thread.

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DeuZerre
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Re: The 91st Luftlande

Postby DeuZerre » Fri 12 May 2017 15:33

Paragraphs please. Press enter twice so it's readable...
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FLX wrote:Removing the weaknesses from the divisions leads to all divisions being the same in the long run. We won't proceed like that.

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Re: The 91st Luftlande

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Fri 12 May 2017 15:45

One Question:

Did you try the AT artillery?
Those 2 guns can help you to tidy up against tanks.
And as long as they are out of range, you can shell them.
I find them a bit slow, but its really revarding to kill tanks with an artillery gun :-)
Edit: I use it as a pair, and together they hold away vehicles and also hordes of infantry, so they are very good supporters in a mixed terrain, where you have infantry but also vehicles that slip through long LOS passages.

Edit 2: It does not show the Air combat situation, but here I have a replay where you can see the potential of those AT cannons. Maybe it helps in progressing with this faction division. (Its glorious to see them fire everywhere)

91.LL 2 AT Arty Tubes.zip
(120.48 KiB) Downloaded 30 times

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Re: A case for the 91. LL (and the need for infantry in your deck in general)

Postby Wolke » Fri 12 May 2017 23:00

Yea I was wondering about the arguments you were making. But seeing you base your feedback on playing versus AI I understand now.

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