Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

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Mikoyan
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Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Mikoyan » Wed 10 May 2017 19:01

In history, the Pak40 was perhaps the most successful AT-gun during the war, however its performance in game hardly reflects its notable traits, and greatly hindered the AT-capabilities of most German factions:

1. The Pak40 is remarkably light, weighs only 1425kg, which is fairly close to the M1 57mm/6 pdr (1140kg). This gave the Pak40 excellent mobility across the battlefield, the Pak40 was often seen transported and relocated using animal and manpower, easier than its allied counterparts of similar calibers.

But in game the Pak40 moves at only 10km/h, same as the M5 76mm and 17 Pdr. IRL, the M5 weighs 2210kg, and the 17 Pdr weighs 3050kg, twice of the Pak40 :ugeek: ! Both guns were extremely difficult to move without motorized power, which is nothing like moving a Pak40.

Suggestion: increase the Pak40's moving speed to 13km/h, same as the lighter AT-guns; Then reduce the moving speed of the 17 pdr to 8km/h, which is on par with Flak 41, a closer RL weight equivalent. The prices could be buffed/nerfed accordingly.


2. All the Pak40 mounted tank destroyers have a 1200m range in-game, while the towed Pak40 only reaches out to 1000m. I can't figure out the reasoning behind that. Is it about bore altitude and elevation? In fact, the Pak40 has a gun depression/elevation from -5°~22°, the M5 clocks at -5°~30°, and the 17 pdr has only -6°~16°! The 17 pdr supposes to have the most limited range if we follow down this logic. Btw, if we compare the heights, the Pak40 is only 125cm tall, the M5 and 17 pdr are both 160cm. A lower profile should always be a plus to the ATs, not a drawback. The Pak40 posts even a smaller target than the 6 pdr (128cm)

Suggestion: either expend Pak40's range to 1200m, or buff its stealth and strength (hit-points) to reflects its RL survivability. Good stealth and an 8-men crew sounds legit.


P.S.: The Pak38 deserves a good stealth too, since it's only 108cm tall.
Last edited by Mikoyan on Wed 10 May 2017 19:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby CUALEB_Operator » Wed 10 May 2017 19:10

I'd second that a 1200m range is much needed. 1000m is straightup out-ranged by the Wolverines, and only put up a 200m standoff range against the .50cals, which can be easily covered by fast-moving on roads. Two .50 cals can pin and vaporize an AT in matter of seconds.

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Markenzwieback » Wed 10 May 2017 19:15

1200m range for Pak 40 should 100% be a thing. Beyond that, I could see the movement speed buff being a nice detail feature too.
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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby gogopher » Wed 10 May 2017 19:16

lol everyone has a pet favorite...guess urs is the pak 40...

this is a game and things are done to balance one unit vs the other...for instance the stugs have a 1000m range while the jpz4 with the exact same gun has a 1200m range...go figure..pak 40 and the 76 are comparable weapons in this game...for a reason...balance

doesnt matter what is RL what matters is not making one div op vs another...in RL the allies had massed air power which gave them air supremacy over normandy (note i said supremacy not superiority)...yet in the 8 div beta the german air power is superior to the allies...when irl the german air power was a non factor...irl the thunderbolt and typhoons could and would 1-shot any german tank (more german tanks were lost to air power than any other means save crew self-destruction)...in this game thunderbolts and typhoons usually just piss of the tanks...irl allied divs had more troops and gear than a german so comparing an allied div to a german would be more accurate if the allies had twice the dollars per min and twice the number of slots...but that would kinda break the game...note i said game...so nice try but im gonna say not happening

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Markenzwieback » Wed 10 May 2017 19:22

gogopher wrote:this is a game and things are done to balance one unit vs the other...for instance the stugs have a 1000m range while the jpz4 with the exact same gun has a 1200m range...go figure..pak 40 and the 76 are comparable weapons in this game...for a reason...balance

And yet the US 76mm anti-tank gun has 1200m range and the Pak40 doesn't. When they are comparable weapons in game (as you said), both should have comparable stats. Therefore the buff he presented would actually make even more sense.
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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Mitchverr » Wed 10 May 2017 19:24

Copy/paste from the thread on paradox.

First, the M1 57mm is the 6 pounder, not the 2 pounder, these are 2 completely different weapons, the 2 pounder was alot lighter, but the PAK was simular to the 6 pounder in weight.

I wouldnt mind seeing the 17 pounder being forced to move a tad slower myself, given it was a big weight, though this would also be the case of "please can i have transports" so they dont end up being doomed to sit where they drop for the whole game.

A speed buff for the PAK 40 would actually be pretty good i think.

If I remember right theres a reason that the vehicle mounted PAK 40s have more range, but I cant remember it. Elevation and depression are not the only factors, muzzle velocity is also a key factor for ranging a gun aswell as the shell itself with bleeding energy etc.
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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby gogopher » Wed 10 May 2017 19:32

im not saying equal im saying balanced...biggest allied at guns atm are the 76mm and the 17pdr (which if memory serves is actually a 76mm)...the germans have a pak 43 as their top dog...the pak 40 is an anomaly since the germans have the pak 36, pak 38, pak 40 and pak 43 (with more to come if i read the blogs correctly)...the allies have the 57mm and the 76mm...the 6pdr and the 17pdr...kinda makes sense to me the pak 40 doesnt have 1200m range...dont get me wrong i would love to see the pak 40 take on a more historic appearance...im just saying it isnt game breaking as is

lest look at it another way...76mm has 1200m range with a 14pen iirc...pak 40 has 1000m range with a 15pen...76mm will most often just annoy a german panther or KT at 1200m...pak 40 will one shot any allied tank at 1000m...product warning: exceptions will occur and will often occur annoyingly when u are counting on them not to

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Mikoyan » Wed 10 May 2017 19:32

Mitchverr wrote:Copy/paste from the thread on paradox.

First, the M1 57mm is the 6 pounder, not the 2 pounder, these are 2 completely different weapons, the 2 pounder was alot lighter, but the PAK was simular to the 6 pounder in weight.

I wouldnt mind seeing the 17 pounder being forced to move a tad slower myself, given it was a big weight, though this would also be the case of "please can i have transports" so they dont end up being doomed to sit where they drop for the whole game.

A speed buff for the PAK 40 would actually be pretty good i think.

If I remember right theres a reason that the vehicle mounted PAK 40s have more range, but I cant remember it. Elevation and depression are not the only factors, muzzle velocity is also a key factor for ranging a gun aswell as the shell itself with bleeding energy etc.


its a mistake,sorry。

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby gogopher » Wed 10 May 2017 19:38

"wouldnt mind seeing the 17 pounder being forced to move a tad slower myself, given it was a big weight, though this would also be the case of "please can i have transports" so they dont end up being doomed to sit where they drop for the whole game."

so run a supply truck with them...when u want it to move just hook it up to the truck and instant transport that doesnt go away...now if u put said truck to close to0 them in the open ur gonna nerf their stealth since i bomb/arty supplies as a rule...but just saying u want mobility use ur supply trucks
Last edited by gogopher on Wed 10 May 2017 19:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pak40 vs M5 76mm & 17 Pd

Postby Mikoyan » Wed 10 May 2017 19:39

gogopher wrote:im not saying equal im saying balanced...biggest allied at guns atm are the 76mm and the 17pdr (which if memory serves is actually a 76mm)...the germans have a pak 43 as their top dog...the pak 40 is an anomaly since the germans have the pak 36, pak 38, pak 40 and pak 43 (with more to come if i read the blogs correctly)...the allies have the 57mm and the 76mm...the 6pdr and the 17pdr...kinda makes sense to me the pak 40 doesnt have 1200m range...dont get me wrong i would love to see the pak 40 take on a more historic appearance...im just saying it isnt game breaking as is

lest look at it another way...76mm has 1200m range with a 14pen iirc...pak 40 has 1000m range with a 15pen...76mm will most often just annoy a german panther or KT at 1200m...pak 40 will one shot any allied tank at 1000m...product warning: exceptions will occur and will often occur annoyingly when u are counting on them not to


maybe you are right ,1200m range is ask too much.

BUT, as a lighter and shorter gun,it should move faster and good stealth

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