Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

ZenTeapot
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Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Sun 21 May 2017 09:22

Been playing for a while. Just speaking for myself about a few issues with the game.

1. Air battles and anti-air guns
*Note, I do know Eugen's reasoning behind anti-air guns not shooting down planes.
The prime problem with air battles is similar to that in Wargame, except probably more severe. Whoever controls the sky, controls the game, and aa guns can't do shit. Allies AA guns never prevent heavy bombers from dropping the payload, neither does the german guns except flak 88. And AA guns themselves are very vulnerable to bombers too. So the anti-air thing is all on the fighter planes. As a result mid to late game it becomes really brittle, as one slugfest of air battle may decide of the fate of the game. Whoever loses, goes downhill from there, and it's just slow suicide and makes the game uninteresting.

2. Tanks
I mostly have issues with the auto "Fallback" mechanic. Usually my tank gets killed when it's falling back, not when it's engaging or moving on my command. It has happened multiple times that if my tank just follows my command, like moving into cover instead of falling back, it would just survive nicely. But when it started to fallback, the shitty AI takes over, turns its front armor, moving out of cover and stuff. It removes player control and the shitty AI is suicidal at best. I can't imagine that being by design.

3. Infantry
Infantry is really slow paced right now. For infantry heavy divisions, the front line becomes stagnant at open fields. It then becomes a game of hiding and eating artillery and air fire. Overall infantry should move faster, and AT weapon range slightly buffed.

4. Surrender
Feels redundant really. It doesn't add much depth to the game, more like a treat when I get it, and an inconvenience when it happens to my units. Feels like an extra rule that added on top of a working morale system.

5. Morale
Except for air and artillery, units are pinned way too easily. That's for tanks and infantry. It becomes a nuance sometimes to micro manage the morale. It's probably better to make all ground units more resilient to morale damage, and pinned harder and suffer a more severe penalty when they are low on morale.

6. Artillery

Too powerful right now. Either make it good for pinning, or make it not so devastating. It just ruins all the planning you can do in this game. Remove off-map artillery please. It's a weird feature that ruins battle field dynamic. Remove the smoke ammo limit. Make them firing smoke rounds faster.

7. Supply

In Wargame, supply is good for three things, reinforcing infantry, repairing mechanical units, and supply ammo, of which ammo limit and resupplying is the most stagnant and offers the least strategic depth. And the game kept it, while removing the other two...

8. AT Guns

As the prime weapon against tanks at long range, and sometimes the only reliable weapon against certain division's armor, AT guns die way too easily. A lot of one click solutions for AT guns, like long range artillery, various sort of bombers, support gun/tanks. And AT guns are literally not survivable in late game. They cost a lot, are hart to move around and hide, and easy to kill. Remove one of these would help a lot.

Overall it feels too difficult to organize big pushes. Coordinating a lot of brittle units and managing their morale is a cluster fuck, and stuff always go wrong. No amount of planning and staging can save you from that. One rocket artillery, your big ready-to-go plan is ruined. Ground battles are too stagnant because of it.

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KampfKeksKrieger
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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Sun 21 May 2017 15:46

The game is a bit harder and has an a bit other focus than wargame.

Here is my argumentation. Its a bit long but It looks bad to spoiler it. I hope it helps :)

1. As you see, the scale is smaller than wargame, single units count, and you are forced to keep key units alive.
-> You are asked to go to skirmish mode and warm up for the hot battles in multiplayer to survive with everything you mentioned.

As for sky, yes, its pity, but damned thats WW2, so keep your fighters alive! Thats a core skill. I find it good to give it such a primary role that they have finally deserved, as in Wargame, they do their job, but you dont have a clue of the MEANING to loose a dog fighter.
Should it not have a MEANING to loose ASF? You just dont ask and dont see and dont feel that loosing those HURTS!

The Solution is, to start THINKING, BEFORE you loose your planes, get out a flak or 2, and cover your ASF with the flak, especially when chased, the asf gets stunned before you, now you are the hunter, so its not THAT easy to kill those ASF if played with some training.

2. YOU are the commander, and usually, you must draw your people back a step BEFORE they rout, maybe at 80%90% stress, so: start thinking, BEFORE its all over and ruined. If you order your people BEFORE they are dead, you can manage a lot!
Yes it needs some training to control them, and yes, why shall this not be a factor that shows who is a good player and who not?

Of course its even better to see the situation coming before you start the actual battle to retreat a bit first, prepare artillery and support, and then fight back with even forces. (I could say more here)

3.the slow speed of infantry is not a problem even, as it takes a LOT more time to figure out a good way to execute your offensive, as it takes time for your units to move. Even with slow towed Units and AT guns, if you call them a minute earlier, they will be in place when you need to. Its not that they can teleport themselves, but you as the player, can improve the 'speed' of your offensive with a good planning. Thats the same problem, the commanders in 1944 had either!
So feel honored to be regarded on such a high level, if you command!
Its difficult! A BIG honor belongs to you if you succeed!

4. This is a REALLY interesting feature: You can chase down enemy units and actually 'capture them, making prisoners, if you pursue them, after they are broken! Thats what the marshals in EVERY war always did: They engaged the enemy people, and then pursued them and made prisoners! Now take your fast jeep, follow the road, and be a policeman for enemy infantry! Its not always possible, but I like that you are actally capable to hunt down the enemy and make prisoners! Yes thats how it works, thats realistic, and also fun!
(You can see in my 91.LL replay how I capture a bunch of 4 inf squads at once, below in the sig. its really realistic (and again: difficult to succeed;good!) to do so! Ah I enjoy it so much!

5. Every shot counts, yes, thats why you think before you dare to push into battle. Look exactly how it works, and find your advantage to make the first strike BEFORE the enemy can do that. Thats alike a skill, that is so much fun to play for.
So why not dodge your people? If the game gives you the task, you can do that better than anyone else, because no automatism is keeping you encaged, keeps you away to succeed with your units!

6. Artillery soaks a lot of ammo! Both players have the chance to arty down the enemy frontline, so you always find an advantage for your side, that makes the better artillery commander out of you. It encourages you to not have all your people at one place.
If you could do that, you would have strong points that were invulnerable to any ground attacks.
So you spread your people, and if the town needs close combat, you both can bomb and support your men.
The game seems too hard and impenetrable at start. but its not! After some training, you start to make really successful moves!
I need about 20 matches vs the AI to learn the deck, and to learn the MAP, which is really important, you need a master plan how you proceed with the map, before you start competitive battles, because you must first know, with which units you conquer which area, and how you do it fast, and thats always possible.

So those people with the best planning, are honored with the most successful artillery, so don't scare of, but be a part of those impressive people, who actually manage that! You are already a WOW player as you ask this questions!

7. wargame has a larger tactical-strategical level of operation, where repairing vehicles and reinforcements are thinkable.
In WW2, that possibilities were more restricted, and you act on a more local scale, so its just one more thing to manage the damaged vehicles that you cannot repair -> think ahead so that this does not happen to you!

8. With artillery and planes alone, you cannot hold ANY of your front lines. You kill the enemy artillery with your own Artillery and planes, and your AT guns ask you to play them properly. AT guns are sensible tools, but not powerless. You keep in mind 2 things for them: 1. You must have them into position before the clash, especially the first clash, a position in a treeline for example that you can retreat into savety at anytime. Or use corners of a building to play with the LOS angle to keep your AT guns hidden and save. And 2. You give them some fire protection, so that 1 at gun is not exposed to get fired by a whole flank force.

- And a small undocumented secret: You can rebind your towed units with a supply vehicle, and move it!
I have already seen my ammunition Opel Blitz carrying my AT gun.

I show it its really cool:
Moving towed units with Supply vehicles.jpg
Moving towed units with Supply vehicles.jpg (204.06 KiB) Viewed 1227 times

AT guns or a support IG18 like here can attach to a supply truck
And same with infantry.

Conclusion: The skills that the game asks from you, are asking you to be learned! But in contrast to wargame, you can really LEARN to keep units alive, make a big push etc, whereas with wargame, you had to micro more with less reward, it was more work than here.

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby nuke92 » Sun 21 May 2017 20:47

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:AT guns or a support IG18 like here can attach to a supply truck
And same with infantry.


:shock:
can you attach towed guns to halftrack APCs?
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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Sun 21 May 2017 20:56

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:- And a small undocumented secret: You can rebind your towed units with a supply vehicle, and move it!
I have already seen my ammunition Opel Blitz carrying my AT gun.

I show it its really cool:
Moving towed units with Supply vehicles.jpg

AT guns or a support IG18 like here can attach to a supply truck
And same with infantry.

It was documented among the features added between the first and second beta ... :)

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Sun 21 May 2017 21:42

nuke92 wrote:an you attach towed guns to halftrack APCs?


Yes, and there is the following rule:
There are heavy and light transports, and all transports can be loaded with infantry, and all halftracks can load AT guns and infantry.
Only a small kubel.mg can load a lightweight IG18, but not a 37mm AA gun, but halftracks can.

Supply and transport methods.jpg
Supply and transport methods.jpg (202.75 KiB) Viewed 1159 times


1. Kubel.MG can attach a IG18, or a Pak38, but not a Pak40, heavy 37mm flak, or a Pak43 even. Heavy transports can.
2. the mg42 can choose light and heavy transports, so its useful to keep transport units alive.
3. the halftrack of the Flak41 goes with a Pak43,
4. and also with infantry.

[EUG]MadMat wrote:It was documented among the features added between the first and second beta ... :)


Good! Well I think its useful to clarify this situation. It can speed up towed units quite a bit, even if not at the direct frontline.
Now its in the hands of the united commander heads to use it intelligent (which is easier said than done). :)

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Mon 22 May 2017 09:30

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:The game is a bit harder and has an a bit other focus than wargame.

Here is my argumentation. Its a bit long but It looks bad to spoiler it. I hope it helps :)

1. As you see, the scale is smaller than wargame, single units count, and you are forced to keep key units alive.
-> You are asked to go to skirmish mode and warm up for the hot battles in multiplayer to survive with everything you mentioned.

As for sky, yes, its pity, but damned thats WW2, so keep your fighters alive! Thats a core skill. I find it good to give it such a primary role that they have finally deserved, as in Wargame, they do their job, but you dont have a clue of the MEANING to loose a dog fighter.
Should it not have a MEANING to loose ASF? You just dont ask and dont see and dont feel that loosing those HURTS!

The Solution is, to start THINKING, BEFORE you loose your planes, get out a flak or 2, and cover your ASF with the flak, especially when chased, the asf gets stunned before you, now you are the hunter, so its not THAT easy to kill those ASF if played with some training.

2. YOU are the commander, and usually, you must draw your people back a step BEFORE they rout, maybe at 80%90% stress, so: start thinking, BEFORE its all over and ruined. If you order your people BEFORE they are dead, you can manage a lot!
Yes it needs some training to control them, and yes, why shall this not be a factor that shows who is a good player and who not?

Of course its even better to see the situation coming before you start the actual battle to retreat a bit first, prepare artillery and support, and then fight back with even forces. (I could say more here)

3.the slow speed of infantry is not a problem even, as it takes a LOT more time to figure out a good way to execute your offensive, as it takes time for your units to move. Even with slow towed Units and AT guns, if you call them a minute earlier, they will be in place when you need to. Its not that they can teleport themselves, but you as the player, can improve the 'speed' of your offensive with a good planning. Thats the same problem, the commanders in 1944 had either!
So feel honored to be regarded on such a high level, if you command!
Its difficult! A BIG honor belongs to you if you succeed!

4. This is a REALLY interesting feature: You can chase down enemy units and actually 'capture them, making prisoners, if you pursue them, after they are broken! Thats what the marshals in EVERY war always did: They engaged the enemy people, and then pursued them and made prisoners! Now take your fast jeep, follow the road, and be a policeman for enemy infantry! Its not always possible, but I like that you are actally capable to hunt down the enemy and make prisoners! Yes thats how it works, thats realistic, and also fun!
(You can see in my 91.LL replay how I capture a bunch of 4 inf squads at once, below in the sig. its really realistic (and again: difficult to succeed;good!) to do so! Ah I enjoy it so much!

5. Every shot counts, yes, thats why you think before you dare to push into battle. Look exactly how it works, and find your advantage to make the first strike BEFORE the enemy can do that. Thats alike a skill, that is so much fun to play for.
So why not dodge your people? If the game gives you the task, you can do that better than anyone else, because no automatism is keeping you encaged, keeps you away to succeed with your units!

6. Artillery soaks a lot of ammo! Both players have the chance to arty down the enemy frontline, so you always find an advantage for your side, that makes the better artillery commander out of you. It encourages you to not have all your people at one place.
If you could do that, you would have strong points that were invulnerable to any ground attacks.
So you spread your people, and if the town needs close combat, you both can bomb and support your men.
The game seems too hard and impenetrable at start. but its not! After some training, you start to make really successful moves!
I need about 20 matches vs the AI to learn the deck, and to learn the MAP, which is really important, you need a master plan how you proceed with the map, before you start competitive battles, because you must first know, with which units you conquer which area, and how you do it fast, and thats always possible.

So those people with the best planning, are honored with the most successful artillery, so don't scare of, but be a part of those impressive people, who actually manage that! You are already a WOW player as you ask this questions!

7. wargame has a larger tactical-strategical level of operation, where repairing vehicles and reinforcements are thinkable.
In WW2, that possibilities were more restricted, and you act on a more local scale, so its just one more thing to manage the damaged vehicles that you cannot repair -> think ahead so that this does not happen to you!

8. With artillery and planes alone, you cannot hold ANY of your front lines. You kill the enemy artillery with your own Artillery and planes, and your AT guns ask you to play them properly. AT guns are sensible tools, but not powerless. You keep in mind 2 things for them: 1. You must have them into position before the clash, especially the first clash, a position in a treeline for example that you can retreat into savety at anytime. Or use corners of a building to play with the LOS angle to keep your AT guns hidden and save. And 2. You give them some fire protection, so that 1 at gun is not exposed to get fired by a whole flank force.

- And a small undocumented secret: You can rebind your towed units with a supply vehicle, and move it!
I have already seen my ammunition Opel Blitz carrying my AT gun.

I show it its really cool:
Moving towed units with Supply vehicles.jpg

AT guns or a support IG18 like here can attach to a supply truck
And same with infantry.

Conclusion: The skills that the game asks from you, are asking you to be learned! But in contrast to wargame, you can really LEARN to keep units alive, make a big push etc, whereas with wargame, you had to micro more with less reward, it was more work than here.


Really appreciate the thoroughness of your reply, though I cannot agree with most of it.
Btw, are you a member of Eugen? or just speaking for yourself. I'd like to know if it's an official take on the points I listed.

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Mon 22 May 2017 09:31

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
KampfKeksKrieger wrote:- And a small undocumented secret: You can rebind your towed units with a supply vehicle, and move it!
I have already seen my ammunition Opel Blitz carrying my AT gun.

I show it its really cool:
Moving towed units with Supply vehicles.jpg

AT guns or a support IG18 like here can attach to a supply truck
And same with infantry.

It was documented among the features added between the first and second beta ... :)


Since you've been here, is it possible to get designer's opinions on the points I listed?

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KampfKeksKrieger
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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Mon 22 May 2017 15:46

If you are intending to play the game, you have everything you need.
You dont just throw away a game if it is about to release, ignore everything it can and what it is to find critism.
And you dont just throw away that I offered to you, and say, 'I cannot agree'.

If you like computer games, you learn to appreciate and respect the developers behind every single of the existing computer games.
What are you intending?

The game is good!

What do you want to have improved? What bugs you? How can you not get going with any of my answers?
You see now how it works. You just need to learn. I would jump in and play if I was you!

images.duckduckgo.com.jpg
images.duckduckgo.com.jpg (402.42 KiB) Viewed 1049 times

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Tue 23 May 2017 04:13

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:If you are intending to play the game, you have everything you need.
You dont just throw away a game if it is about to release, ignore everything it can and what it is to find critism.
And you dont just throw away that I offered to you, and say, 'I cannot agree'.

If you like computer games, you learn to appreciate and respect the developers behind every single of the existing computer games.
What are you intending?

The game is good!

What do you want to have improved? What bugs you? How can you not get going with any of my answers?
You see now how it works. You just need to learn. I would jump in and play if I was you!

images.duckduckgo.com.jpg


Don't get too sentimental over it, and please don't speak for things I didn't say. The game is good, and the game has its fair share of problems. By not agreeing while not elaborating, I only meant not to get into a lengthy argument over the points you listed, which I think could be just bad design choices. But they are design choices nonetheless. I only care what Eugen's design choices are, if they recognize the issues I listed as problems or as intentional choices, and the likely hood and direction they will evolve.

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Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Tue 23 May 2017 11:49

"You KNOW that you have lost this dispute, I guess?" :lol:

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