Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Random
Captain
Posts: 1509
Joined: Thu 31 Jan 2013 19:05
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby Random » Tue 23 May 2017 14:47

ZenTeapot wrote:
3. Infantry
Infantry is really slow paced right now. For infantry heavy divisions, the front line becomes stagnant at open fields. It then becomes a game of hiding and eating artillery and air fire. Overall infantry should move faster, and AT weapon range slightly buffed.



I am not very pro-realism when it comes to the "balance vs realism"-debate, but there is a limit of realism that should be retained.

infantryspeed is already overmodeled by a factor of 2x-4x. Not as bad as in wargame, but nowhere near realistic speed.

ZenTeapot
Specialist
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri 22 Jul 2016 09:06
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Tue 23 May 2017 15:42

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:"You KNOW that you have lost this dispute, I guess?" :lol:

Win/loss is not an issue really. I'm not aiming to win anything here. I acknowledge there are different design considerations and games made for different people with different preferences, that's all. Your points are not worth disputing since you are not a game designer, while I actually design games as a profession. Our terminology and background knowledge in this area are too disparate to produce any meaningful outcome.

ZenTeapot
Specialist
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri 22 Jul 2016 09:06
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Tue 23 May 2017 15:46

Random wrote:
ZenTeapot wrote:
3. Infantry
Infantry is really slow paced right now. For infantry heavy divisions, the front line becomes stagnant at open fields. It then becomes a game of hiding and eating artillery and air fire. Overall infantry should move faster, and AT weapon range slightly buffed.



I am not very pro-realism when it comes to the "balance vs realism"-debate, but there is a limit of realism that should be retained.

infantryspeed is already overmodeled by a factor of 2x-4x. Not as bad as in wargame, but nowhere near realistic speed.


From a realism perspective probably yes, though I haven't really calculated that with in game scale.
But nonetheless, the problem is not realism here, but if you think the slow speed of infantry is affecting game pacing. If that is true and there is a willingness to change, I'm sure there are ways to make it reasonable presentation wise.

User avatar
KampfKeksKrieger
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 10:15
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Tue 23 May 2017 18:48

ZenTeapot wrote:
KampfKeksKrieger wrote:"You KNOW that you have lost this dispute, I guess?" :lol:

Win/loss is not an issue really. I'm not aiming to win anything here. I acknowledge there are different design considerations and games made for different people with different preferences, that's all. Your points are not worth disputing since you are not a game designer, while I actually design games as a profession. Our terminology and background knowledge in this area are too disparate to produce any meaningful outcome.


Be careful who you talk with! If you are a game designer you must be blind! You see the flower of all games and dont see how genious, fine tuned and what a lot of work it is compared to other games, eugens put a lot more work into it than any ea/ubigames I have seen.
And how good you know me! I did not know from me that I am not a game designer. Time to ask a new Lords2 from you!

Computer games are no empty CD hulls that you just put into the shelf and 'ah, boring, next one'. That happens with games from EA/ubi if they are not WORTH more than that.
REALLY good games have a life time of over 20 years, if they are well designed. Wargame and Steel division are not yet seen, they are not a copy from something.
Changing the points we spoke about to the things that are intended by you would damage the picture of the game, it would become a ww2 wargame for disabled persons. ( I intend not to insult. I need the word for the comparison).

But the people want a high demand where they can use their heads at and toss through the game for the most efficient way. Now bring a challenge for 100.000 people with a strategic IQ of 250, what they all have!
Now see my first answer how much you can CLIMB UP at the game!

We have VERY good players here, but the game is new and even them have not even started to touch the game really (compared to how big it is), and also wargame is not yet mastered, even though we have REALLY good players.
What I mean, yes they can play fast and succesful, but they have not yet seen the full potential of what it can, as they dont use the full tactical wideness there are 1000 more things that you could use for your advantage. All this is yet to be learned!

Now I have said you lost this discussion already. Now feel how it is to have passion to a game and honor what is given to us all!
There might be a lot of games to get rid of your time, but there is NOTHING more meaningful on the market than a time-current WW2 game, and a game about Cartel that AoA is, because that is what affects us the most!

Now, a polished cow that talks gladfully about how to wash dishes in a hambuger simulator might sound nicer, but is unimportant, even if it is done super-well.
But a game about the WW2 has earned a huge honor, and is either a master piece or a insult to the people. SDN44 is with no doubt a master piece.
If it needs fine tuning or more balance, that is already much less important to judge the value of the game, but we even get that!
What is more meaningful than to make a game about the thing that concern the people in their life the most (many are not interested, but still then it concerns them)?
-> There are dangerous relations in all our countrys, there is NOTHING more important than to speak about a war, instead to be silent about the topic. You bring the topic into the public and wht is better for the peace, as when the people are fimilar with the matter?

Now see how game design works! Who would ever think so far?
Is it for you unimportant whether a game is about something unimportant or whether it touches the pulse of time?
Is this not the MOST important question if we talk about game design
?
Last edited by KampfKeksKrieger on Tue 23 May 2017 19:05, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
KattiValk
General
Posts: 6313
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2013 03:39
Location: Houston, Texas (CST)
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KattiValk » Tue 23 May 2017 18:54

Infantry are supposed to be slow. We don't need infantry to run fast enough to get arrested in a school zone like in WG, especially since vehicles are much slower than RD too. Personally, playing a lot of 2ID makes me quite happy with the game pace, despite how infantry centric the deck is. I don't tend to feel like I'm being outpaced or outplayed simply because my infantry are too slow.

ZenTeapot
Specialist
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri 22 Jul 2016 09:06
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Wed 24 May 2017 07:37

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:
ZenTeapot wrote:
KampfKeksKrieger wrote:"You KNOW that you have lost this dispute, I guess?" :lol:

Win/loss is not an issue really. I'm not aiming to win anything here. I acknowledge there are different design considerations and games made for different people with different preferences, that's all. Your points are not worth disputing since you are not a game designer, while I actually design games as a profession. Our terminology and background knowledge in this area are too disparate to produce any meaningful outcome.


Be careful who you talk with! If you are a game designer you must be blind! You see the flower of all games and dont see how genious, fine tuned and what a lot of work it is compared to other games, eugens put a lot more work into it than any ea/ubigames I have seen.
And how good you know me! I did not know from me that I am not a game designer. Time to ask a new Lords2 from you!

Computer games are no empty CD hulls that you just put into the shelf and 'ah, boring, next one'. That happens with games from EA/ubi if they are not WORTH more than that.
REALLY good games have a life time of over 20 years, if they are well designed. Wargame and Steel division are not yet seen, they are not a copy from something.
Changing the points we spoke about to the things that are intended by you would damage the picture of the game, it would become a ww2 wargame for disabled persons. ( I intend not to insult. I need the word for the comparison).

But the people want a high demand where they can use their heads at and toss through the game for the most efficient way. Now bring a challenge for 100.000 people with a strategic IQ of 250, what they all have!
Now see my first answer how much you can CLIMB UP at the game!

We have VERY good players here, but the game is new and even them have not even started to touch the game really (compared to how big it is), and also wargame is not yet mastered, even though we have REALLY good players.
What I mean, yes they can play fast and succesful, but they have not yet seen the full potential of what it can, as they dont use the full tactical wideness there are 1000 more things that you could use for your advantage. All this is yet to be learned!

Now I have said you lost this discussion already. Now feel how it is to have passion to a game and honor what is given to us all!
There might be a lot of games to get rid of your time, but there is NOTHING more meaningful on the market than a time-current WW2 game, and a game about Cartel that AoA is, because that is what affects us the most!

Now, a polished cow that talks gladfully about how to wash dishes in a hambuger simulator might sound nicer, but is unimportant, even if it is done super-well.
But a game about the WW2 has earned a huge honor, and is either a master piece or a insult to the people. SDN44 is with no doubt a master piece.
If it needs fine tuning or more balance, that is already much less important to judge the value of the game, but we even get that!
What is more meaningful than to make a game about the thing that concern the people in their life the most (many are not interested, but still then it concerns them)?
-> There are dangerous relations in all our countrys, there is NOTHING more important than to speak about a war, instead to be silent about the topic. You bring the topic into the public and wht is better for the peace, as when the people are fimilar with the matter?

Now see how game design works! Who would ever think so far?
Is it for you unimportant whether a game is about something unimportant or whether it touches the pulse of time?
Is this not the MOST important question if we talk about game design
?


You don't seem to understand what I was saying, and are further adding things that I did not say.

When we talk about game design, it's important to define "design goals", and it's also important to recognize "side effects", which are unwanted results from the game mechanics.

Without a clear understanding of those, it's just comparing apple and oranges. Are slow paced infantry bad? I think yes, because to me I want a faster paced game, with more infantry and tank coordination, a bit less defensive advantage to make the frontline more dynamic and flanking and surround actually a thing. Is this the goal of Eugen? Maybe, maybe partially, maybe entirely off. Is this what the community what? I can see a split, but hard to get exact numbers. If to you, the design does not make sense, it could be either of two cases, you are not among the target audience and the game simply don't care, or that what you want is what the developer want too, but it just hasn't got there due to many reasons, probably mostly side effects that need to be looked at.

I never said 44 is not a lot of work. I never said we don't have a good community. I never said it's not a good game. And I did not claim it unoriginal either. Despite all that, design can be further discussed, and side effects are a natural thing to a game with this level of complexity.

You keep bringing in the emotional factors, like respect, honor, pulse of time, concerns of people's lives and stuff like cow and hamburger. I just don't know what to say, they are entirely irrelevant, neutral arguments that really don't make an argument.

Btw, I have designed games with 5 million players. I think there is still a lot to learn, but I'm definitely not blind.

My conversation with you will end here. This is exactly what I didn't want to get into in the first place, design irrelevant talks with someone who just doesn't speak in rational terms.

User avatar
KampfKeksKrieger
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 10:15
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Wed 24 May 2017 11:57

If you cannot laugh, you will loose your job in the next 5 years.
You dont even understand what fun is!
How can somebody ignore the most important factors?
You dont understand that a human is something else than a law curt and a machine to run your software on.
And what a disrespect for players! My answers are so valuable!
And what an unwillingness to take my hand and talk to me, contrary opinions bring the most reward if carried out.
You dont know to play anything of that to your advantage.

Now you see, we dont want a nasty topic. Bury that hatchet and jump in the game!
You miss the most important energy source for your life if you dont even understand the matter of fun!
Get back what you just said to me! The game is out. We now have to act, if we want to live in a different world!


And no offense to you! We are adult persons. We are ripe to talk straight, or are we not?

ZenTeapot
Specialist
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri 22 Jul 2016 09:06
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby ZenTeapot » Thu 25 May 2017 04:15

KampfKeksKrieger wrote:If you cannot laugh, you will loose your job in the next 5 years.
You dont even understand what fun is!
How can somebody ignore the most important factors?
You dont understand that a human is something else than a law curt and a machine to run your software on.
And what a disrespect for players! My answers are so valuable!
And what an unwillingness to take my hand and talk to me, contrary opinions bring the most reward if carried out.
You dont know to play anything of that to your advantage.

Now you see, we dont want a nasty topic. Bury that hatchet and jump in the game!
You miss the most important energy source for your life if you dont even understand the matter of fun!
Get back what you just said to me! The game is out. We now have to act, if we want to live in a different world!


And no offense to you! We are adult persons. We are ripe to talk straight, or are we not?


If you want to think all that when riding the high horse telling people to jump in the game, while labeling people who give fair criticism all that nonsense, be my guest.

User avatar
KampfKeksKrieger
Command Sergeant Major
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 14 Feb 2012 10:15
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby KampfKeksKrieger » Thu 25 May 2017 18:51

ZenTeapot wrote:If you want to think all that when riding the high horse telling people to jump in the game, while labeling people who give fair criticism all that nonsense, be my guest.


I greatly appreciate your courage. I even feel attracted to reward it.
People who can play Steel Division also can stand their man, they climb up a hill, it might be a too large hill, but they have fun in climbing it, and if you see what wargame players have to consider in their game, its not even difficult anymore.
I think the game gives you a very soft way to climb up. Only the hill is large.

But do you know what happens with mountains if you once climbed them?
Suddenly, it was easy to climb them and you are looking for an even larger mountain. And you feel an endless joy as you finally GOT that!

Nobody can know, whether it was wrong what the developers did. It is an instant insult to claim that it could be wrong.
They cannot have mixed it up with bad side effects, because they travel through completely new land, and whichever step they take, has no relation to something. So how do you want to judge if something is not working?. If so, what is the reference? You have none.

This has nothing to do with whether you like it or not or whether there are also other ways. If you want to play an other game, you even have the mod tools, to adapt some vital rules, yes you can even play with more fighters and with AA flak actually devastate planes!
You can make AT guns more resilent or more sneaky or change their mobility for gameplay reasons.

Your critism is in every case useful. But how do you come to the idea that something is not working?

User avatar
Fade2Gray
General
Posts: 8650
Joined: Wed 1 May 2013 23:30
Location: IED proof in Iraq
Contact:

Re: Stuff I feel not working in Normandy 44

Postby Fade2Gray » Thu 25 May 2017 21:15

I feel like I need to crack open a bottle of Jack in order to read this.
Image
Image
Think you have what it takes to enlist into the military? You sure about that?

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron