Steel Division sales...

Sleksa
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Sleksa » Wed 14 Jun 2017 20:31

Woozle wrote:
nande wrote:there's no such answer.

Please explain how the different air interactions are better than RD's.


You can't simply delete an entire strike force with an F-111C now, an air train has a hard time even killing one unit.


Destroying even one unit in SD is more or less equivalent to wiping out a rather large force in RD due to the scale of the game. In the times when F-111C's came with 8 nukes, one could get a card of 32 tanks for 15 points and make more or less one of them every 15 seconds. In comparison with SD, even the cheapest and most "spammable" tanks don't really go beyond 6 availability, and come generally at 5-8x the comparable price. Loss of even one of these is devastating in 1v1's/2v2's in sd, whereas in wargame it was an accepted norm in 2v2 to lose a dozen tanks just as a screening/atgm bait force ahead of the key units behind them.

Comparatively many key units are also now massively more vulnerable. Previously (in wargame) for example anti-tank units had a lot more range than tanks, were a lot more stealthy, could hide in buildings, could avoid bombers with decent awereness, atgm squads could town hop and so on. In SD this is all removed. AT weapons are equal or lesser range than tanks, they are too slow to avoid any bombers, can't get into buildings and so on. Even in prices It's a vast difference coming from a 20-30pt atgm squad that could deter even the heaviest of tanks, to paying the equal price of a medium tank for an at weapon that can't even threathen half the heavier tanks in the game.

This is also true in case of some air defences. With the games I've seen it's more frequent a sight to see an aa gun die to a strafing guns-only fighter than to see an aa gun kill a plane, or even deny it unloading it's weapons before it's paniced.

And this is all discounting the fact that there's now a button one can press that costs about 33-50pts that more or less removes entire grids in a way that F-111C's of old could only dream of, and with complete inpunity and invisibility.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Random » Wed 14 Jun 2017 21:46

Outside of 1-2 exceptional units I have not seen bombers do much in SD. Often a bomber drops its bomb, only to do 5 hp damage and morale damage on an infantrysquad. Many artilleryunits have a lot higher lethality. And the reloadtimers of planes are for many of them a lot longer then in WG.

AA only does moraledamage vs planes, but planes do a lot less aswell, with the exception of some axis AT-planes, which pay themselves off within roughly 2-3 runs.

The AA/air interactions are certainly very different then WRD, but I dont see a problem with them in principle. Also there is almost no dedicated AA anymore, most of the time it is used as a multirole-unit. The game will need time to be balanced, but that was to be expected, WAB and WRD needed a long time to have a meta with more then one decktype in it...

Also the number of units was not added within 1 game in wargame.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Hidden Gunman » Wed 14 Jun 2017 22:18

Sleksa wrote:
Woozle wrote:
nande wrote:there's no such answer.

Please explain how the different air interactions are better than RD's.


You can't simply delete an entire strike force with an F-111C now, an air train has a hard time even killing one unit.


Destroying even one unit in SD is more or less equivalent to wiping out a rather large force in RD due to the scale of the game. In the times when F-111C's came with 8 nukes, one could get a card of 32 tanks for 15 points and make more or less one of them every 15 seconds. In comparison with SD, even the cheapest and most "spammable" tanks don't really go beyond 6 availability, and come generally at 5-8x the comparable price. Loss of even one of these is devastating in 1v1's/2v2's in sd, whereas in wargame it was an accepted norm in 2v2 to lose a dozen tanks just as a screening/atgm bait force ahead of the key units behind them.

Comparatively many key units are also now massively more vulnerable. Previously (in wargame) for example anti-tank units had a lot more range than tanks, were a lot more stealthy, could hide in buildings, could avoid bombers with decent awereness, atgm squads could town hop and so on. In SD this is all removed. AT weapons are equal or lesser range than tanks, they are too slow to avoid any bombers, can't get into buildings and so on. Even in prices It's a vast difference coming from a 20-30pt atgm squad that could deter even the heaviest of tanks, to paying the equal price of a medium tank for an at weapon that can't even threathen half the heavier tanks in the game.

This is also true in case of some air defences. With the games I've seen it's more frequent a sight to see an aa gun die to a strafing guns-only fighter than to see an aa gun kill a plane, or even deny it unloading it's weapons before it's paniced.

And this is all discounting the fact that there's now a button one can press that costs about 33-50pts that more or less removes entire grids in a way that F-111C's of old could only dream of, and with complete inpunity and invisibility.


The original F111C of RD does have it's SD equivalent...it's the 380mm Railway Gun. It evaporates large swathes of ground, far more so than the F111C did in its' heyday.
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Razzmann » Thu 15 Jun 2017 11:38

Hidden Gunman wrote:The original F111C of RD does have it's SD equivalent...it's the 380mm Railway Gun. It evaporates large swathes of ground, far more so than the F111C did in its' heyday.

That's what he said, at the end:

And this is all discounting the fact that there's now a button one can press that costs about 33-50pts that more or less removes entire grids in a way that F-111C's of old could only dream of, and with complete inpunity and invisibility.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Sleksa » Thu 15 Jun 2017 12:36

Random wrote:The AA/air interactions are certainly very different then WRD, but I dont see a problem with them in principle. Also there is almost no dedicated AA anymore, most of the time it is used as a multirole-unit. The game will need time to be balanced, but that was to be expected, WAB and WRD needed a long time to have a meta with more then one decktype in it...

Also the number of units was not added within 1 game in wargame.


I see vast problems with the aa/air interaction with the game in a situation where only a unit type (plane) counters the same unit type (plane). Personally I consider this incredibly nonrealistic/historical/whatever as well, and anyone who suggested it as an idea to be incompetent both as a gameplay designer and a history reader.

And by countering I mean spending less resources on the unit than the price of a unit it's trying to counter. It certainly is within the realm of possibility to deter a plane from unloading it's weapons, but in general (and depending on chosen division), one has to pay upwards to 2-8x the cost of the plane one is trying to stop to get a sufficient treshhold of moral damage, like buying 2x flak88 or a flak 88 + 1-3 different aa guns easily coming up to a 300+ total cost. Alternatively with some divisions if you choose the wrong aa types, you can pay that 8x cost and still not be able to stop the plane from unloading, let alone trying to kill it. In comparison fighters generally come at same price as the planes they're trying to kill, which makes the airplay incredibly lopsided if one side manages to get the enemy's fighters, removing any realistic chance of downing enemy aircraft from that point on. Multirole aa is also somewhat of a question mark. Some of the remotely viable aa units certainly work as multirole, while some of them are extremely hard to use as such and are way too costly to be risked in other uses.

In regards to artillery and it's current state in the game, it's another problem that I'm fairly sure any competent person can see as problematic in it's current iteration. My biggest gripe however remains with the offmap artillery, especially any lack of visual/other type of broadcast that it's being used. More or less every other rts game in existance has telepgraphed these things, such as flares in company of heroes, visual pre-effects in dawn of war, red alert circles in starcraft and so on. I see no reason why this mechanic couldnt've been added.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Erich Honecker » Thu 15 Jun 2017 17:16

Game have 800 online now, feels like ded game.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Crotou » Thu 15 Jun 2017 17:27

Feels like any Eugen/RTS game in the past 5 years.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Razzmann » Thu 15 Jun 2017 17:51

Crotou wrote:Feels like any Eugen/RTS game in the past 5 years.

Compared to all Wargame titles player numbers have sunken a lot faster though (according to SteamDB).

Which is surprising to me, considering that outside of balance, the game feels very polished to me. And it is not like any of the Wargames have been stellar in terms of balance at release, no?

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Mike » Thu 15 Jun 2017 18:28

Razzmann wrote:
Crotou wrote:Feels like any Eugen/RTS game in the past 5 years.

Compared to all Wargame titles player numbers have sunken a lot faster though (according to SteamDB).

Which is surprising to me, considering that outside of balance, the game feels very polished to me. And it is not like any of the Wargames have been stellar in terms of balance at release, no?


Well compare the T-72BU to the M1A2 in the open beta of RD. Its was like 40% accuracy and 22 AP vs 70% with perfect stabs and 25AP. :lol:
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Crotou » Thu 15 Jun 2017 19:50

Razzmann wrote:Compared to all Wargame titles player numbers have sunken a lot faster though (according to SteamDB).


Maybe TankGirl, Nerdfish and all their friends stopped playing when people started asking Destruction mode to be removed from the game. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Crotou on Fri 16 Jun 2017 08:04, edited 1 time in total.
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