Steel Division sales...

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Hidden Gunman
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Hidden Gunman » Mon 19 Jun 2017 11:24

Too true, Gros. It's interesting to see on the Paradox forums who argues against toning down the peak units (such as the Brute Firefly, vets in abundance, etc) and the identified problems...1v1 (reputedly) high rank players who use the L2P or 'it isn't a problem for high level players' arguments.

Which might be why there were only 300 players online around 3 hours ago, or at least a significant part of those reasons for that.
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby nande » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:17

why are the new leaders a "very good idea"? They're gamey as hell, their sole purpose being to add unnecessary micro.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Grosnours » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:22

There is sometimes some ground to the L2P argument (like the thread where the guy didn't want to understand that tanks alone will get ambushed by a panzershrek team) , but usually it's indeed akin to an easy dismissal.
My favorite though is the eternal classic "1v1 ingame right now" when there's a disagreement. That and the wagging of the e-peen (I'm top 10 in ranked !).

For the low amount of players, I'd say it's more a conjunction of many different factors than one main culprit, but yes the forums are not the friendliest of places and it doesn't help.

nande wrote:why are leaders good design? Their bonuses are gamey and the units only serve to add unnecessary micro.

I'm not sure you can qualify the small amount of micro they add (literally : buy one, keep them more or less in range) as a toll for the player. On the plus side, using them provides a small bonus for any units. Meaning you can see it as a small reward for knowing the game well. It's also an elegant way to slightly decrease the importance of veterancy when you create your deck, offering more flexibility in deck building.

There are several alternatives but they are not exactly satisfying either. If you authorize experience gain during the fight it quickly devolves into a power creep, and if you lock experience to deck selection only it gives you 0 flexibility and much more emphasis on higher experience cards.

The problems stems from -again- the implementation. Command units sometimes have better stats (why ?) and more experience, which makes them a better frontline unit. I guess it stems from the fact Eugen was afraid nobody would use command units, but still, it is frankly stupid.
Worse, the experience mechanism provides such a big buff (0/15/30/45%) that the gap between 0 star and 2 stars unit is way too wide.

Again very decent idea with a questionable implementation.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby nande » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:32

Grosnours wrote:I'm top 10 in ranked !
well it's an objective measure of progress in a system that identifies experience and skill. Besides elitism outrage, what's wrong with referencing it when you're at an impasse with someone who can't see the game in the same way.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Hidden Gunman » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:40

nande wrote:
Grosnours wrote:I'm top 10 in ranked !
well it's an objective measure of progress in a system that identifies experience and skill. Besides elitism outrage, what's wrong with referencing it when you're at an impasse with someone who can't see the game in the same way.


The problem is that it is inevitably only the experience and knowledge of a very select minority, and carries too much of an 'it's alright for me' bias. It has little to no relevance to most players. No one has to be in the top 20 1v1 crowd to know AC rush is a thing, nor that a railway gun can wreck your game...but as far as the 1v1 crowd are concerned, AC rush is part and parcel of their game, and no one uses the railway gun, which isn't the experience of most players.

The majority of players aren't 1v1...they dip in, get crunched, and walk away feeling they've been exploited. They just want to play fun games, and in more than a few ways they get their 'team' games in 10v10, which, as much as it's sledged, can be fun for a lot of people.

Re the leaders, they are like recce, to an extent...none is bad, some is necessary, lots is a real step to winning.
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby nande » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:48

Hidden Gunman wrote:they dip in, get crunched, and walk away feeling they've been exploited.
but why should they win? The answer to this lies in proper matchmaking, not in the game's systems.
I also doubt that many ranked players care only about 1v1. Steel Division is clearly not designed around that setting, and I can't remember a single decent wargame team that didn't have any ranked players.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Sleksa » Mon 19 Jun 2017 12:58

Grosnours wrote:Destruction is actually not a problem in itself.


Yes it is. Has always been a problem and will always continue to be a problem.

Regarding the pro elitist argument:

If there is something that an average player could do differently to avoid a loss, I'd generally dump it into a l2p issue. However if something is theoretically counterable but requires the player to be excessively good, such as requiring some ultrahigh apm or vast knowledge of how things work in the game, it's not really fair to say that the player just needs to l2p. However eugen's games have had quite a lot of the kind of mentality where the game is always at fault instead of the player. Throughout my history in wargame, I've only ever seen one single person go from "game is broken" mental mode into a "my playstyle needed adjustement" (http://forums.eugensystems.com/viewtopic.php?p=386018#p386018), in the sea of hundreds of "game is broken" threads and arguments.
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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby Hidden Gunman » Mon 19 Jun 2017 14:05

nande wrote:
Hidden Gunman wrote:they dip in, get crunched, and walk away feeling they've been exploited.
but why should they win? The answer to this lies in proper matchmaking, not in the game's systems.
I also doubt that many ranked players care only about 1v1. Steel Division is clearly not designed around that setting, and I can't remember a single decent wargame team that didn't have any ranked players.


The answer actually lies in having far more players, so that the MM system can function more effectively.

I'm not saying new players should be able to beat better players, I'm only pointing out reality. I don't recall seeing any high ranked 1v1 player providing any assistance or effort to bring new players into the game. You never see them providing help or advice in chat, and I can't recall seeing much in the forums, with a couple of exceptions from long term forum members...they aren't a special or protected species, although some act like it.

@Sleksa I'm not denying that, but it is still no reason to discount genuine problems out of hand...phasing balance and tweaking isn't going to make anyone play better, but it will change the meta towards a more equitable deck use.
A Firefly killed Wittman...

It's a 17lbr, not a 76.2mm.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby nande » Mon 19 Jun 2017 14:32

Hidden Gunman wrote:I don't recall seeing any high ranked 1v1 player providing any assistance or effort to bring new players into the game. You never see them providing help or advice in chat, and I can't recall seeing much in the forums
Razzmann created his tutorial video series and fadeway wrote the definitive red dragon guide. Top players create content for people to watch and stay interested, be it recordings of tourneys or even just ranked games.

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Re: Steel Division sales...

Postby nande » Mon 19 Jun 2017 14:43

while I've had a ton of issues with the game throughout the two betas, it's the shocking implementation of matchmaking that was the reason for my refund of SD. Had decent matchmaking been the main mode for finding games at release, the playercount wouldn't have dropped from almost 5k to the 500 I'm seeing right now on steamcharts. Sadly, it looks like the ship's sailed.

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