German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

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German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby KillaJules » Tue 6 Jun 2017 09:42

There are 3 squeeze-bore guns in this game, 1 British, the Little John and 2 German ones. In this thread, I'm not arguing that they are unbalanced, only that the stats of the 2 German ones are very inauthentic.

This is obvious when you first look at the Little John. The Little John is a squeeze-bore adaptor fitted to the end of the barrel of a 2-pounder gun which has a caliber of 40 mm. The standard 2-pounder which is mounted on the Staghound and Tetrarch has 1000 m range, 4 accuracy and 8 AP power and also has some HE power. The Little John reduces range to 800 m but increases AP power to 14 and takes away HE power completely. This makes sense and is consistent with how squeezebore weapons worked in real life.

But the German squeezebore guns break the pattern in ways that make no sense. The 28 mm PanzerBuesche 41 has a poor accuracy of 4 and only 800 m range as it should. But it only has 8 AP power. Ordinary 2-pounders and even 37 mm dual-purpose guns have more AP power at that range. A dedicated anti-armour weapon firing tungsten-cored ammo of 28 mm in caliber should not be inferior in AP power to a general purpose 40 mm weapon that was obsolete in the anti-tank role by this stage of the war. Historically, the 28 mm gun once even penetrated the lower front plate of the IS-1 heavy tank (http://english.battlefield.ru/tanks/10- ... -js-2.html)yet in-game it is inferior to even the Stuart's gun. Totally absurd. An AP rating of 10 or 11 would be fair for the 28 mm gun at 800 m range. Nothing too crazy and could make the units armed with it more useful.

Even more ridiculous is the I.Pak 41 Gerlich of the 3rd FJ division. This is a 42 mm squeezebore weapon. The Little John is an adaptor for a 40 mm weapon. They should have similar performance. But in-game, the I.Pak has only 8 AP power compared to 14 for the Little John but 200 m more range. The I.Pak performs nothing like it should. Being a squeezebore it should lose some range in exchange for disproportionately high AP for its weight. Realistically, the I.Pak should be a stat-clone of the Little John, obviously with other adjustments to price, veterancy and/or availibility if needed. Making the Gerlich an 8 AP, 1000 m range AT gun is like making the 17 pounder a short range AT gun with great HE shells or it would be like taking away the AP shells of the Flak 88.


Obviously this game is not a simulation or meant to be totally historically accurate, but these 2 German weapons, the Gerlich especially, could be much closer to being authentic then they are now.

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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby Sgt._Pepper » Tue 6 Jun 2017 12:23

Do you have any proof that the penetration of the PAK 41 was on par with the Littlejohn? I found a projectile weight of 567 g for the Littlejohn, but only 336 g for the Gehrlich. Both have a similar muzzle velocity.

The l.PAK 41 is already one of the best AT guns, in one of the strongest Divisions in the game, it's not exactly in need of a buff.
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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby KillaJules » Tue 6 Jun 2017 13:17

Sgt._Pepper wrote:Do you have any proof that the penetration of the PAK 41 was on par with the Littlejohn? I found a projectile weight of 567 g for the Littlejohn, but only 336 g for the Gehrlich. Both have a similar muzzle velocity.


The Littlejohn penetrated 88 mm of armour at 450 m (not sure if angle is 0 or 30 degrees) whereas the Pak 41 Gerlich penetrated around 72 mm at a 30 degree angle. In any case, their performance was not nearly different enough to account for the discrepancy we see in-game.

Sgt._Pepper wrote:The l.PAK 41 is already one of the best AT guns, in one of the strongest Divisions in the game, it's not exactly in need of a buff.

I'm not asking for a buff but a rebalance which is why I said that this change may require adjustments to price, veterancy and availability. The range reduction alone would also limit its versatility.

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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby GARGEAN » Tue 6 Jun 2017 15:24

Sgt._Pepper wrote:The l.PAK 41 is already one of the best AT guns, in one of the strongest Divisions in the game, it's not exactly in need of a buff.

Fuck muh balance. Realism should not be screwed so hard in any case.

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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby KattiValk » Tue 6 Jun 2017 17:03

To be fair to balance concerns, the 3fj can lose the HS129 if their AT guns got buffed. It would keep the division strong but not nearly as cancerous.

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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby Markenzwieback » Tue 6 Jun 2017 17:20

KattiValk wrote:To be fair to balance concerns, the 3fj can lose the HS129 if their AT guns got buffed. It would keep the division strong but not nearly as cancerous.

The Phase A Hs129 is not nearly as cancerous as 11-man Airborne Engineers with flamethrowers and plenty of SMGs
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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby Desty » Tue 6 Jun 2017 17:29

Markenzwieback wrote:The Phase A Hs129 is not nearly as cancerous as 11-man Airborne Engineers with flamethrowers and plenty of SMGs


Still comes close to Phase A naval fire support cancer :lol:
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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby Markenzwieback » Tue 6 Jun 2017 17:42

Desty wrote:
Markenzwieback wrote:The Phase A Hs129 is not nearly as cancerous as 11-man Airborne Engineers with flamethrowers and plenty of SMGs


Still comes close to Phase A naval fire support cancer :lol:

Granted, its a very strong unit. But you can counter the Henschel by buying a fighter, which leaves you at less points spent compared to 3rd FSJ. Now, try to reliably counter airborne flamers or naval fire support. And that while staying in a range that you can still call cost-effective. ;)
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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby KattiValk » Tue 6 Jun 2017 17:53

Markenzwieback wrote:The Phase A Hs129 is not nearly as cancerous as 11-man Airborne Engineers with flamethrowers and plenty of SMGs
AB Engis are pretty ridic, but they also are part of the blandest AB division in the game, and the only one that doesn't get meme tier Phase A off-map arty. Hell, if the 101st didn't have 100 Phase A income and AB Engis then no one would touch them.

Markenzwieback wrote:Granted, its a very strong unit. But you can counter the Henschel by buying a fighter, which leaves you at less points spent compared to 3rd FSJ. Now, try to reliably counter airborne flamers or naval fire support. And that while staying in a range that you can still call cost-effective. ;)
Tigga summarized this pretty well IMO:
    We get quite quickly into theorycrafting and hypotheticals.

    If you take the 129 and have the 140 points as backup. If the 129 sees a fighter you buy your elite 109 and counter their fighter. In my experience this usually ends up with a dead countering fighter, an alive 129, an alive 109 and some dead tanks. If you don't counter with an ASF, I still have my 140 points.

    Now, if they counter with two fighters then things might be interesting... but that means they're holding a huge amounts of points back in A and just the threat of the 129 is making them do that. Also, only some decks can actually do two fighers in A.

    IMO the 129, or even the threat of the 129, shuts down a lot of France/Guards/Poles/Scots/3rd Armoured play in A. That's a very powerful thing to be able to do. You don't even have to buy it for the opponent to be forced to counter it.

    Then there's the decks with no fighters in A...

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Re: German Squeezebore guns (28 mm and I PAK Gerlich) have Wrong Stats

Postby Mitchverr » Tue 6 Jun 2017 18:18

A few things to correct here.

1. The staghound had the US 37mm gun, NOT the 2 pounder.

2. The 2 pounders have no HE across the board.

3. Not only is the AP of the squeezebore correct to real life in how its portrayed, but it is correct to the numbers given of the MK1 ammunition, technically speaking mk2 which was used in normandy was better, and also from what I gather the standard 2 pounder possibly could be a little better, but I cant find any stats so i am happy with the balance it has.

4. The german guns, whats their real life ability? Because you know, theres more to it then just "eugen balance" here, the 2 pounder LJ is true to real life numbers.

5. "once it did this" to a russian lets say, "not the quality production model" of russia isnt really a fair way to judge this, bring some facts.

6. Again, please stop confusing 2 pounders and 37mm guns, also dont forget calibre isnt the be all end all of a guns ability.

7. The 88 at 450 was against 30 degrees, standard british testing. This is also the mk1 ammunition, mk2 was said to be a big step up.

8. sources are required my friend.

For example with the LJ, before it got a buff myself and a couple others put forward how it was vs how eugen do things, I dont know if it got it to 14 or not, but it is like so

88 at 30 at 450, is about just over 100mm lets say.
Add 20mm for the 350m distance thing to bring it to 100m range like all other guns.
Divide by 10 as most guns are, AP 12.
Add 2 AP due to being 200m closer to target.
AP 14.

9. Simple fact, not all squeezebores are alike or as effective as each other, for example there were attempts to make them for the 37mm which ended in complete failure, which is why you should really source effective ability.

I am all for supporting a buff if irl they did that kind of a jump, but if they didnt... Then not so much.
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