Division Specific Balance Patch

KillaJules
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 507
Joined: Sat 5 Nov 2011 03:20
Contact:

Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby KillaJules » Wed 26 Jul 2017 10:05

Since the next patch will apparently focus on balancing each of the divisions, I've been thinking about what changes could or should be made.

The following list of suggested changes is very incomplete and I focus mainly on the Axis since I have more experience with them. Many overall balance changes such as price buffs for the cheaper medium tanks have been discussed elsewhere so I'll be focusing mainly on changes to the Axis. I also think that it is the Axis divisions that need the largest changes. US 3rd Armoured, Guards and Polish can probably all be fixed via vet buffs and/or availability to certain infantry and armoured units.

That brings me to my suggestions for the Germans.


Axis:

All 20 mm autocannon vehicles for Germans could use an accuracy nerf since they are too dominant early game.

sIG 33 and Grille should get indirect fire capability since they are too short ranged and fragile to be useful for direct fire support. They could also get the Stielgranate 42 HEAT round for short range use against armour.

91st Luftlande
This division as it currently stands is easily the least well designed. It suffers in early availability with many different unit types but lacks late game power. It doesn't really do well in any phase. Total number of cards should probably be increased to 40 like other infantry divisions.

1) FlaK 36 37 mm is an OK German unit but is available too late for LL. LL is not designed for armoured warfare so it needs defensive AT guns and planes in Phase A. But LL has no way to defend its only AT units in Phase A from fighters. Giving the LL 2 cards of 2 FlaK 36 37 mm in Phase A would help them massively.
2) The sFH 396(r) is a mediocre 122 mm artillery piece for 140 points. 88 mm FlaK costs the same and is far more effective in either of its 2 roles. All the other German divisions that lack armour have far better access to the 88 mm FlaK. Buffing the sFH 396(r) would go a long way top fixing the LL while keeping them unique. By giving the 122 mm gun 1200 m range, 5 accuracy and 15 AP power in the anti-tank role, the sFH 396(r) would become a lot more usable.
3) 2 cards of 1 StuG III G should be changed to 2 cards of 2 just like every other Axis infantry and Airborne division in the game. No reason why the 91st should suffer here.
4) PaK 36 37 mm should have its availability per card increased from 3 to 5. 3 per card is far too low considering how terrible this unit is.
5) GRW. 81 mm mortar could be made available in Phase A but isn't crucial.

17th SS-PzGren
1) Remove all cards of Nebelwerfer 41 from Phase A.
2) Number of cards of off-map 170 mm arty could probably be reduced too.
3) StuG III F/8 needs to have its priced reduced to 125 points at the most. There is no way to justify this unit costing so much more than a Wolverine or M4A1.

21st Panzer
1) Beute Sherman should have its card availability changed from 1 card of 4 in Phase B to 2 cards of 1 in Phase A since early model Shermans are not that useful past Phase A.
2) Panzer IV G needs to have its price reduced to 100 points maximum and it should be available in Phase A
3) Panzer IV C in the support tab should have its AP shells removed and its price reduced from 80 points to 40 points. Reason being, such a lightly armoured tank (it has only 4 frontal armour) with only 1000 m range shouldn't be fighting vehicles anyway and giving it AP shells needlessly increases its price.
Phase A card of PaK 43 88 mm should be removed. Its overkill anyway.
4) At least 1 card of Panzergrenadiers in trucks in Phase A would also help a lot.

Pegasus
1) The SPW 204(f) is a decent armoured car but 1 card of 1 with no vet in Phase A isn't enough. 1 card of 2 would probably be fine.
2) The other armoured car, the SPW 204(f) with the 47 mm gun should also be made available in Phase A since its useless in Phase B.
3) Since artillery is overall a bit too common in Phase A, the GRW. 120 mm mortar could probably get its availability cut back.

Windhund
1) Panzerwerfers should be removed from Phase A. Although this division is very reliant on vehicles in Phase A, their flame and mortar half tracks provide enough support.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/7 half track with the AP 8 28 mm gun would be a decent fire support unit if it was available in Phase A. This isn't a necessary change but would make this unit useful.

Panzer-Lehr
1) Due to their poor Phase A income and over-reliance on vehicles, Panzer-Lehr needs to have their flame halftracks available in Phase A, 1 card of 2 or 3 would probably be enough.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/9 half track with 75 mm howitzer would make a great Phase A fire support option if it was available in Phase A. Hitlerjugend could also benefit from this change but they don't really need any buffs.
3) Sdkfz 251/21 with triple 15 mm autocannons needs a suppression/damage buff. It is currently outperformed by 20 mm autocannons too much. This buff would also nicely compensate for nerfs to the German 20 mm autocannon.
4) Panzer-Lehr should probably lose their Phase A panzerwerfer although if any division should be allowed to have Phase A rocket arty, it's probably this one. 1 or 2 more mortar half tracks for Panzer Lehr in Phase A though is probably better overall.

716th Infantry
1) Panzer B2(f) and Flammpanzer B2(f) are overpriced, even compared to the mediocre 75 mm Shermans and Panzers of other divisions. Reducing their price from 110 90 or 85 should be fair, especially since medium tanks will hopefully get price buffed.
2) Panzer S35(f) and the command version should probably get moved to Phase A.

3rd FJ
1) 380 mm off-map arty should be moved from Phase B to Phase C.
2) The Hs 129 B1 should be removed from Phase A since the 3rd FJ already have so many strong ground-based AT ambush units already.
3) I.PaK 41 Gerlich could, for historical reasons have its performance changed to match the Allied Little John. Range would decrease to 800 m but AP would increase from 8 to 14.

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Wed 26 Jul 2017 10:40

In addition to 40 activation points, adding another slot or two on support would really help 91st Luftlande out. Either you have enough supplies or sufficient fire support right now. Two more slots would allow for StuH, supply trucks (A+C) and some IG18s.
Image

User avatar
Erich Honecker
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed 28 Oct 2015 11:58
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Erich Honecker » Wed 26 Jul 2017 15:16

91st Luftlande is very strong deck already. The only german deck which needs much help is 716.
Image

Object199
Warrant Officer
Posts: 428
Joined: Thu 7 Aug 2014 21:12
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Object199 » Wed 26 Jul 2017 17:10

KillaJules wrote:Axis:

All 20 mm autocannon vehicles for Germans could use an accuracy nerf since they are too dominant early game.
Disagree strongly.

sIG 33 and Grille should get indirect fire capability since they are too short ranged and fragile to be useful for direct fire support. They could also get the Stielgranate 42 HEAT round for short range use against armour.
I dont see them used at all, but making them into arty in the support tab isnt the solution.

91st Luftlande
This division as it currently stands is easily the least well designed. It suffers in early availability with many different unit types but lacks late game power. It doesn't really do well in any phase. Total number of cards should probably be increased to 40 like other infantry divisions.

1) FlaK 36 37 mm is an OK German unit but is available too late for LL. LL is not designed for armoured warfare so it needs defensive AT guns and planes in Phase A. But LL has no way to defend its only AT units in Phase A from fighters. Giving the LL 2 cards of 2 FlaK 36 37 mm in Phase A would help them massively.
2) The sFH 396(r) is a mediocre 122 mm artillery piece for 140 points. 88 mm FlaK costs the same and is far more effective in either of its 2 roles. All the other German divisions that lack armour have far better access to the 88 mm FlaK. Buffing the sFH 396(r) would go a long way top fixing the LL while keeping them unique. By giving the 122 mm gun 1200 m range, 5 accuracy and 15 AP power in the anti-tank role, the sFH 396(r) would become a lot more usable.
3) 2 cards of 1 StuG III G should be changed to 2 cards of 2 just like every other Axis infantry and Airborne division in the game. No reason why the 91st should suffer here.
4) PaK 36 37 mm should have its availability per card increased from 3 to 5. 3 per card is far too low considering how terrible this unit is.
5) GRW. 81 mm mortar could be made available in Phase A but isn't crucial.
Haudegen is pretty strong, I wouldnt change them at all.

17th SS-PzGren
1) Remove all cards of Nebelwerfer 41 from Phase A.
2) Number of cards of off-map 170 mm arty could probably be reduced too.
3) StuG III F/8 needs to have its priced reduced to 125 points at the most. There is no way to justify this unit costing so much more than a Wolverine or M4A1.
Disagree.

21st Panzer
1) Beute Sherman should have its card availability changed from 1 card of 4 in Phase B to 2 cards of 1 in Phase A since early model Shermans are not that useful past Phase A.
2) Panzer IV G needs to have its price reduced to 100 points maximum and it should be available in Phase A
3) Panzer IV C in the support tab should have its AP shells removed and its price reduced from 80 points to 40 points. Reason being, such a lightly armoured tank (it has only 4 frontal armour) with only 1000 m range shouldn't be fighting vehicles anyway and giving it AP shells needlessly increases its price.
Phase A card of PaK 43 88 mm should be removed. Its overkill anyway.
4) At least 1 card of Panzergrenadiers in trucks in Phase A would also help a lot.
Disagree strongly, like wtf dude, why would you want to remove the Pak43, it is a tank deck with pretty weak tanks safe for the KT in phase C, until then you really rely on the Pak43.

Pegasus
1) The SPW 204(f) is a decent armoured car but 1 card of 1 with no vet in Phase A isn't enough. 1 card of 2 would probably be fine.
2) The other armoured car, the SPW 204(f) with the 47 mm gun should also be made available in Phase A since its useless in Phase B.
3) Since artillery is overall a bit too common in Phase A, the GRW. 120 mm mortar could probably get its availability cut back.
Disagree, I also dont like the whole arty/mortar/off map arty spam in SD, but this problem isnt solved by division balance, it needs a global change.

Windhund
1) Panzerwerfers should be removed from Phase A. Although this division is very reliant on vehicles in Phase A, their flame and mortar half tracks provide enough support.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/7 half track with the AP 8 28 mm gun would be a decent fire support unit if it was available in Phase A. This isn't a necessary change but would make this unit useful.
Why would you want another fire support vehicle in phase A when the only gimmick this deck has are the vetted PzIII in phase A. This decks needs buffs, but certainly not in the form of even more fragile vehicles with AT guns for phase A.

Panzer-Lehr
1) Due to their poor Phase A income and over-reliance on vehicles, Panzer-Lehr needs to have their flame halftracks available in Phase A, 1 card of 2 or 3 would probably be enough.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/9 half track with 75 mm howitzer would make a great Phase A fire support option if it was available in Phase A. Hitlerjugend could also benefit from this change but they don't really need any buffs.
3) Sdkfz 251/21 with triple 15 mm autocannons needs a suppression/damage buff. It is currently outperformed by 20 mm autocannons too much. This buff would also nicely compensate for nerfs to the German 20 mm autocannon.
4) Panzer-Lehr should probably lose their Phase A panzerwerfer although if any division should be allowed to have Phase A rocket arty, it's probably this one. 1 or 2 more mortar half tracks for Panzer Lehr in Phase A though is probably better overall.
Disagree.

716th Infantry
1) Panzer B2(f) and Flammpanzer B2(f) are overpriced, even compared to the mediocre 75 mm Shermans and Panzers of other divisions. Reducing their price from 110 90 or 85 should be fair, especially since medium tanks will hopefully get price buffed.
2) Panzer S35(f) and the command version should probably get moved to Phase A.
Needs more help than this.

3rd FJ
1) 380 mm off-map arty should be moved from Phase B to Phase C.
2) The Hs 129 B1 should be removed from Phase A since the 3rd FJ already have so many strong ground-based AT ambush units already.
3) I.PaK 41 Gerlich could, for historical reasons have its performance changed to match the Allied Little John. Range would decrease to 800 m but AP would increase from 8 to 14.
Disagree.


Haudegen is one of the best, if not the best german deck right now. I dont really understand why you want to buff it, but rather nerf already weak decks like the Windhund.

Erich Honecker wrote:91st Luftlande is very strong deck already. The only german deck which needs much help is 716.


Yeah Eichenlaub could really need some help, but IMO Windhund too.



My biggest issue with SD right now are not problems with divisions not being as strong as the others or some being overly strong, but rather with global things like AA not really being worth their points and the god damn artillery spam in every kind of form.
Image

KillaJules
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 507
Joined: Sat 5 Nov 2011 03:20
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby KillaJules » Thu 27 Jul 2017 05:56

Object199 wrote:
KillaJules wrote:Axis:

All 20 mm autocannon vehicles for Germans could use an accuracy nerf since they are too dominant early game.
Disagree strongly.

I guess you weren't around when people were complaining about autocannon spam/rush



sIG 33 and Grille should get indirect fire capability since they are too short ranged and fragile to be useful for direct fire support. They could also get the Stielgranate 42 HEAT round for short range use against armour.
I dont see them used at all, but making them into arty in the support tab isnt the solution.

At least back up why you think that making them arty isn't the solution. They don't have the armour to survive direct fire combat for long against anything. Even without extra range, indirect fire capacity would make them more useful against units in hedgerows or buildings.

Haudegen is pretty strong, I wouldnt change them at all.

I don't see how LL can be considered strong. They have good infantry, but very limited infantry support options,
and their only tools for dealing with vehicles at mid-long range are towed weapons and the Hs 129 B3, both of which get countered by fighters and the LL cannot counter fighters at all in Phase A.


Disagree.
Once again, no reason at all is given for your opinion. Rocket artillery is a bit excessive in Phase A and the StuG III F/8 is objectively overpriced compared to every Allied Phase A tank or tank destroyer.

Disagree strongly, like wtf dude, why would you want to remove the Pak43, it is a tank deck with pretty weak tanks safe for the KT in phase C, until then you really rely on the Pak43.
OK, finally you provide some reasoning for your opinion, but you obviously didn't even read what you're responding to. I suggested BUFFING the 21st Panzer by giving them better and cheaper tanks in Phase A. 21st Panzer also already has TDs in Phase A. I guess the PaK 43 could stay but an expensive 22 AP towed weapon is very niche at best early game so it isn't something they should be relying on.



Pegasus
1) The SPW 204(f) is a decent armoured car but 1 card of 1 with no vet in Phase A isn't enough. 1 card of 2 would probably be fine.
2) The other armoured car, the SPW 204(f) with the 47 mm gun should also be made available in Phase A since its useless in Phase B.
3) Since artillery is overall a bit too common in Phase A, the GRW. 120 mm mortar could probably get its availability cut back.
Disagree, I also dont like the whole arty/mortar/off map arty spam in SD, but this problem isnt solved by division balance, it needs a global change.
Cutting availability of all heavy artillery for divisions that have them in Phase A is a global change, I don't see what your arguing against here. Also, I can't see any argument against making the French armoured cars slightly more available in A. They're worthless in B and could be decent but far from game-breaking in A.




Windhund
1) Panzerwerfers should be removed from Phase A. Although this division is very reliant on vehicles in Phase A, their flame and mortar half tracks provide enough support.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/7 half track with the AP 8 28 mm gun would be a decent fire support unit if it was available in Phase A. This isn't a necessary change but would make this unit useful.
Why would you want another fire support vehicle in phase A when the only gimmick this deck has are the vetted PzIII in phase A. This decks needs buffs, but certainly not in the form of even more fragile vehicles with AT guns for phase A.
That suggestion was not to fix Windhund but to make a currently useless unit useful. Windhund needs mortar half tracks and more available infantry in Phase A, I stand by my statement that panzerwerfers are excessive in A.


Panzer-Lehr
1) Due to their poor Phase A income and over-reliance on vehicles, Panzer-Lehr needs to have their flame halftracks available in Phase A, 1 card of 2 or 3 would probably be enough.
2) Pionier Fuehrer in the Sdkfz 251/9 half track with 75 mm howitzer would make a great Phase A fire support option if it was available in Phase A. Hitlerjugend could also benefit from this change but they don't really need any buffs.
3) Sdkfz 251/21 with triple 15 mm autocannons needs a suppression/damage buff. It is currently outperformed by 20 mm autocannons too much. This buff would also nicely compensate for nerfs to the German 20 mm autocannon.
4) Panzer-Lehr should probably lose their Phase A panzerwerfer although if any division should be allowed to have Phase A rocket arty, it's probably this one. 1 or 2 more mortar half tracks for Panzer Lehr in Phase A though is probably better overall.
Disagree.
Why bother replying if you don't give any reasoning for your opinion? Instead of Phase A panzerwerfers, they should get mortar half tracks, the Sdkfz 251/21 performs very poorly compared to German autocannon cars.


716th Infantry
1) Panzer B2(f) and Flammpanzer B2(f) are overpriced, even compared to the mediocre 75 mm Shermans and Panzers of other divisions. Reducing their price from 110 90 or 85 should be fair, especially since medium tanks will hopefully get price buffed.
2) Panzer S35(f) and the command version should probably get moved to Phase A.
Needs more help than this.
I was thinking similarly, but an actual suggestion would be nice

3rd FJ
1) 380 mm off-map arty should be moved from Phase B to Phase C.
2) The Hs 129 B1 should be removed from Phase A since the 3rd FJ already have so many strong ground-based AT ambush units already.
3) I.PaK 41 Gerlich could, for historical reasons have its performance changed to match the Allied Little John. Range would decrease to 800 m but AP would increase from 8 to 14.
Disagree.

Saying that is not constructive or helpful at all.

Object199 wrote:Haudegen is one of the best, if not the best german deck right now. I dont really understand why you want to buff it, but rather nerf already weak decks like the Windhund.


I don't want to nerf Windhund. I simply want to shift their Phase A artillery focus from panzerwerfers to mortar half tracks.


Erich Honecker wrote:91st Luftlande is very strong deck already. The only german deck which needs much help is 716.


Again, I really don't see how LL is considered very strong overall. On a map with just narrow hedgerows so that Fallschirmjaegers and panzerscrecks can reliably get into range without getting too close (so no dense forest), LL would be very strong but their strength is very niche without flexibility. They not only have very limited infantry support vehicle options in Phase A and later game they fall behind every other German infantry division in this area, but they also have worse FlaK 88 options than any other German infantry division. On top of this, they can't protect their Phase A anti-tank units and their artillery is nothing special. The sFH 396(r) for example is pretty mediocre and making it worth taking wont make LL overpowered.


Object199 wrote:My biggest issue with SD right now are not problems with divisions not being as strong as the others or some being overly strong, but rather with global things like AA not really being worth their points and the god damn artillery spam in every kind of form.

We already know that the next balance patch is going to come with a lot of division specific changes. We agree with the issue of arty spam but you say you don't want it to be less spammable without even explaining the apparent contradiction.

Object199
Warrant Officer
Posts: 428
Joined: Thu 7 Aug 2014 21:12
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Object199 » Thu 27 Jul 2017 18:02

KillaJules wrote:*snip*


If I just say I disagree, it is simply because I believe the exact opposite, you say that 20mm autocannons are too dominant early game and I think they are not.

A global patch against artillery wouldnt look like nerfing some arty in certain divisions, you should have listed all disivions ingame, but more something like "RoF for all artillery pieces ingame halfed, turning on the reinforce option for infantry/paks/AA/.... to alleviate the effects of arty spam".

sIG 33 works like a beefed up IG 18. Just hidem them in tree lines like Paks and see them demolish everything that is not a tank, very useful units IMO. First of all making the Grille into arty would mean the Grille would be shoved into in the arty tab, why would we need the Grille as arty when we have the Wespe/Hummel? I can see where you are coming from, but I would much prefer a range increase to 1200m.

About Haudegen, you still have the Pak40 in phase A to deal with everything except for Jumbo. There is a reason why so many people complain about the B3, mainly because it is a extremly strong vehicle removal tool. Which makes perfectly sense for a airborne deck, also you can get up to 4 fighters in A. I really dont see your problem with it.
Image

User avatar
Markenzwieback
Captain
Posts: 1708
Joined: Tue 27 Oct 2015 17:06
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Markenzwieback » Thu 27 Jul 2017 19:19

Object199 wrote:lso you can get up to 4 fighters in A

You get what? All you get is rocket planes with one 20mm cannon and shitty agility. Not even worth anything in the fighter role, as every Spitfire will rip them a new one.
Image

Object199
Warrant Officer
Posts: 428
Joined: Thu 7 Aug 2014 21:12
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby Object199 » Thu 27 Jul 2017 19:40

Markenzwieback wrote:
Object199 wrote:lso you can get up to 4 fighters in A

You get what? All you get is rocket planes with one 20mm cannon and shitty agility. Not even worth anything in the fighter role, as every Spitfire will rip them a new one.


...... and 2x MGs.

Never said they are good ASF, still better than nothing and enough to protect your B3.
Image

User avatar
KattiValk
General
Posts: 6319
Joined: Tue 19 Nov 2013 03:39
Location: Houston, Texas (CST)
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby KattiValk » Fri 28 Jul 2017 02:00

Division wish list?

Please bring the 2ID back from the grave.

The Ranger M1919 nerf essentially murdered this division's ability to be a tangible threat to Fallschrims. No doubt that Ranger Assault are still effective tools and Support do a decent job of crowd control against rookie infantry, but the division is entirely incapable of killing Falls squads in Phase A in anything but solid forest.

Another issue that the division has always had is that it is laughably incapable of killing light vehicle cheese (AC Rush). ATG nerf made ATGs incapable of countering blobs and the division only has a few Ranger Marauders for infantry AT (they don't even get an acc bonus for vet, check for yourself).

KillaJules
Chief Warrant Officer
Posts: 507
Joined: Sat 5 Nov 2011 03:20
Contact:

Re: Division Specific Balance Patch

Postby KillaJules » Fri 28 Jul 2017 03:59

I could definitely get on board with a 2nd inf buff but I'm less familiar with how they work. If 20 mm autocannons get a slight accuracy or area suppression nerf and if heavy phase A arty gets removed or reduced, this could help them and AT gun reliant divisions.

Object199 wrote:
KillaJules wrote:*snip*


If I just say I disagree, it is simply because I believe the exact opposite, you say that 20mm autocannons are too dominant early game and I think they are not.

That's what I've heard



A global patch against artillery wouldnt look like nerfing some arty in certain divisions, you should have listed all disivions ingame, but more something like "RoF for all artillery pieces ingame halfed, turning on the reinforce option for infantry/paks/AA/.... to alleviate the effects of arty spam".

No matter how you nerf arty, long range rocket arty is too much for phase A which isn't supposed to be about heavy weapons.


sIG 33 works like a beefed up IG 18. Just hidem them in tree lines like Paks and see them demolish everything that is not a tank, very useful units IMO. First of all making the Grille into arty would mean the Grille would be shoved into in the arty tab, why would we need the Grille as arty when we have the Wespe/Hummel? I can see where you are coming from, but I would much prefer a range increase to 1200m.

If the Grille would be redundant as arty, then the sIG 33 is already redundant when you have the more efficient ig18. Also, part of my suggestion was to give both of these units the short ranged steilgrenate HEAT round which would help them stand out. In the arty role, they would have less range but more HE then the Wespe.

About Haudegen, you still have the Pak40 in phase A to deal with everything except for Jumbo. There is a reason why so many people complain about the B3, mainly because it is a extremly strong vehicle removal tool. Which makes perfectly sense for a airborne deck, also you can get up to 4 fighters in A. I really dont see your problem with it.

The single Pak40 for LL is important in phase A but it is very vulnerable. The B3 in phase A is actually not that efficient against vehicles. It isn't as agile as the B1 or ju87g so it struggles more to line up its shots and it is overkill against most phase A armour. Spending 200 points on a unit that you can't protect to counter weak phase A armour isn't balanced. Good phase A flak cards for LL would remedy this. The Pak36 is still garbage, having only 3 per card for a gun that bounces on Stuarts is unacceptable. All of these units die to fighters that the rocket me109s of the LL can't counter.

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests