Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

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Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Sunshine » Mon 20 Nov 2017 22:24

Very new to SD44, so I won't dare to make definite claims, but it seems to me that every kind of artillery, even mortars, is sort of an easy-button. It sends everything running too easily/too fast.
Even worse is how easily AT and AA guns fall victim to an artillery strike.
It is frustrating when even high tier guns are just scratched off right away and compared to Wargame, situational awareness is, frankly, a nightmare here. I struggle to keep up with what's going on and don't always displace my guns after they saw action - something I do instinctively and with ease in Wargame, ironically.

Another problem might be the comparably high availability of artillery combined with how difficult it can be to counter it in this game, again, compared to Wargame where one has multiple ways to deal with this sort of harassment.
Here it seems like you're forced to endure it and play hide and seek all the time (not fun).

Again, new player, I might be totally off, but these are my initial observations after ~10 rounds (against human players, of course).
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 20 Nov 2017 23:20

Mortar and MLRS spam is one of the reasons why I stopped playing Steel Division all together. People building up armies of mortars (especially halftrack ones) and spamming every unit they see with it makes pushing with infantry heavy decks next to impossible.

Oh, and wait until you get into a team game where people abuse the amount of Xylos 2nd ID gets (guilty of that myself). The amount of panic and stunning power you can put out is frankly ridiculous.
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Sunshine » Mon 20 Nov 2017 23:32

Is this problem something the community more or less agrees on, and is Eugene aware/was there any word on possible fixes?
#inb4cannotfixwhatissnotbroken
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 20 Nov 2017 23:38

Wouldn't say so. This SD forum is basically dead except some guy posting his Youtube videos and over at Paradox they either bash their head in about the historical background of the Normandy theater or discuss other aspects (16th LW 88s, plane trains, new upcoming content). Granted though, I saw one thread about the infantry stun mechanic recently, but it didn't get much attention. Also, doubt that many would agree with you/us.

The stun mechanic in combination with lots of artillery is to blame here in my opinion. In Wargame units were still usable while under stress, in SD they become dead meat pretty quickly. That fact simply offers lots of room to abuse fast firing tubes.
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Sunshine » Mon 20 Nov 2017 23:49

It's kind of weird, while SD44 never sold well compared to Wargame, I can basically hear our keyboards echoing through the dark hallways of this forum. I guess by now you have a long beard, are half-starved and are mentally isolated as you've been here all alone for so long? :P

Thing is, while SD44 does have a lot of issues, I believe most could really be addressed and turn the game into a much better experience.
And considering some great new features (LOS tool, orders before round-start, return-fire mode, ...), it would really be worth it.

Just...why is nothing happening? :|
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Markenzwieback » Mon 20 Nov 2017 23:56

Yeah, I do kinda feel lonely when visiting from time to time! :lol:

But honestly though, I stopped caring after a while and didn't even bother registering for Paradox forum. Claiming that they need to collect statistical data, Eugen keep us waiting for balance patches for months on end with blatantly broken divisions in game (I am looking at you 4th AD and SSB meme team 6). Beyond that, the balance between Allies and Axis in small games is pretty hilarious. It reached the point where most people in 1v1 play Allies.

And I generally agree with you on the improvements. But the changes they would need to make go beyond just some simple tweaks. During my active time (I did collect 150h in the game after all), I played some games against very good opponents. Those rounds had zero fun in them, because of all the cheese applies by both sides. Mortars on end, artillery (we used Panzerwerfers like mortars during that game...), 10pts infantry/reserve masses and everything else you can think of.
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Sunshine » Tue 21 Nov 2017 00:38

Welp, that sounds... great. :|
Thanks for the insight though!
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Mike » Tue 21 Nov 2017 06:15

I want to play the game more, but it feels like it's missing something to me when I'm playing it.
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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Thu 23 Nov 2017 12:50

Mike wrote:it feels like it's missing something to me when I'm playing it.

And what would that be? (serious question)

Sunshine wrote:Very new to SD44

Glad to have you back, my pink friend. 8-)

Mike wrote:I won't dare to make definite claims, but it seems to me that every kind of artillery, even mortars, is sort of an easy-button. It sends everything running too easily/too fast.
Even worse is how easily AT and AA guns fall victim to an artillery strike.

Is artillery cancerous? That's a far-reaching question ...
Knowing that 90% of infantry losses during WW2 were due to artillery fire, one can consider that military branch as more deadly than cancer indeed. And however toned down it is ingame, it remains effective ... but shouldn't it be? As often, we're walking a fine line between realism and gameplay: artillery is already quite nerfed compared to reality, wouldn't nerfing it more angry the realism lover?

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Re: Is artillery a tiddy-tad too cancerous?

Postby Sunshine » Thu 23 Nov 2017 16:12

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Sunshine wrote:Very new to SD44

Glad to have you back, my pink friend. 8-)

Why thank you, monsieur! :)

[EUG]MadMat wrote:
Sunshine wrote:I won't dare to make definite claims, but it seems to me that every kind of artillery, even mortars, is sort of an easy-button. It sends everything running too easily/too fast.
Even worse is how easily AT and AA guns fall victim to an artillery strike.

Is artillery cancerous? That's a far-reaching question ...
Knowing that 90% of infantry losses during WW2 were due to artillery fire, one can consider that military branch as more deadly than cancer indeed. And however toned down it is ingame, it remains effective ... but shouldn't it be? As often, we're walking a fine line between realism and gameplay: artillery is already quite nerfed compared to reality, wouldn't nerfing it more angry the realism lover?


Of course artillery was responsible for a lot of casualties and it always played a huge role, but we aren't talking about not having artillery at all - we're talking about the effectiveness of it -> with gameplay in mind.

If for authenticity, you'd have to strike basically all aircraft from all German divisions, because in Normandy, the Allies ruled the sky.
But would that be any good for gameplay in a competitive RTS? Of course not.
So, is artillery that is way too cheap, way too available and way too fast/easy to use that can destroy your only Flak 41 with one attack while you can't counter this, let alone displace the unit under attack as it is so slow and instantly stunned anyways good gameplay?

Another example for my case is Close Combat: Gateway to Caen.
It plays in the same scenario as SD44, it even involves the same units/divisions, naturally.
In GtC, you can call for fire once a round (IF available at all), same goes for air strikes, and other than that, you need to rely on your own mortars that will run out of ammo quickly, so you need to think twice where you call that steel rain on, or it might be wasted.
So, does that render GtC bad in terms of realism? Not at all, the game is fantastic - besides the retarded, spammy and indecisive AI, but hey, that seems to be a thing in many RTS depicting combat in Normand.... riiight? ( :P )

In SD44?
Basically unlimited ammunition, thus unlimited calls for fire (and airstrikes but this is another problem/topic, of course) and no real downsides/risks involved. I am not saying "let's get rid of it!", not at all, but as you can see, limiting it even to the extreme, doesn't turn a WW2 game into some arcade-fest.

Wargame had quite some... problems regarding artillery too in its long and proud history (Wargame 4, when? Mat, WHEN?!), but in the end you found good ways to balance it so artillery is still really useful if used right, but it will cost you, is sparse (so the very opposite of anything that would have happened in a real cold war) and can be countered in multiple ways (fast and reliable counter-artillery, cluster, planes or SOF units behind enemy lines).

In SD44 this isn't the case and it hurts the game, I feel.
For example, I threw out all AT-guns from all my decks (and I really love AT-guns!) because unless I do not play against a new guy, I can bet my life on the fact that as soon as my Pak 40 fired once (and I might not notice because I'm busy elsewhere so I can't displace it) some steel will rain down on it shortly after, with a really high chance of destroying it right away. This is even more of a problem when you face certain decks where you just know "oh right, this round will be a nice, long artillery and plane-train spam, yay." because certain decks have been chosen.


From my perspective artillery:
- is too cheap
- is firing too fast
- is available in way too high numbers
- is too economical (ammo consumption)
- stuns even heavily armored units too easily/quickly (even small mortars)
- kills very important and rare units like AT-guns too easily


If the above would be addressed, I am certain it would lead to a better all-round-experience for everyone.
In other words: I cannot see why it would not/what possible downsides of the above could be.
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