Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Shiden343
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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby Shiden343 » Thu 18 Apr 2019 18:03

Me: Hey, it's the Ostfront! Would there be Rudel on Ju87?
*Go look online and finds out rudel was in romania at the time
Me: Okay, looks like he wasn't around the area. Wonder anyone brought this up on forum?

*Found this board and blasted by the amount of Information

Really, I have only been skimming through but the details are astounding. Where do you find all these infos and photos?

Also what you heard about the Vickers 75mm from granpa is really cool. Although I am Jap and my grandparents experienced war, they were just a middle school kids back then. So hearing raw voice of whom fought in the war is really interesting to me.

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steppewolf
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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby steppewolf » Sun 21 Apr 2019 19:15

Shiden343 wrote:Me: Hey, it's the Ostfront! Would there be Rudel on Ju87?
*Go look online and finds out rudel was in romania at the time
Me: Okay, looks like he wasn't around the area. Wonder anyone brought this up on forum?

*Found this board and blasted by the amount of Information

Really, I have only been skimming through but the details are astounding. Where do you find all these infos and photos?

Also what you heard about the Vickers 75mm from granpa is really cool. Although I am Jap and my grandparents experienced war, they were just a middle school kids back then. So hearing raw voice of whom fought in the war is really interesting to me.


Hey, thanks a lot, glad to see people appreciated even only as an amateur armchair historian exercise!

My gandpa basically raised me and he told me a lot of stories from war, some funny, some tragic but what I can't forget is that sometimes when he told me stories his look become fixated in a point and stopped, probably thinking and than change the subject of the discussion. He always said he was lucky to escape alive. He was made officer in Hungary (from NCO) and finished the war as captain and because of "healthy origin" (he was son of a peasant) as the Communism was establishing in Romania he was on the list to be sent to Frunze Military Academy. He refused and resumed with his initial job, teacher, becoming Uni professor in the end in Maths/Physics.

Funny you are Japanese, the first serious history about WW2 which I read was about the war in Pacific and it was written by a Romanian historian and his Japanese friend as a dialogue. It was extremly informative from that time (1984 in Romania, lost of censorship) and I still have it today somewhere.

My sources are very diverse but the main I use are worldwar2.ro (website about Romania in WW1 and WW2) and Axworthy's book about Romania in WW2. For example, most of the info about 3rd Infantry (see below) I found it in a history of the 4th Infantry Rgt. There are a lot of resources on internet but not systematized. Others are Gantz's book about spring offensive (not much useful but some interesting info still) and Soviet staff analysis of operation.

So this new post is about the Northern thrust of Soviet offensive. This mainly happened in Romanian 4th Corps area which consisted of the following units:

Divizia 5 Cavalerie Moto (veterans motorized cavalry division) - this is probably the most interesting division from this corps
Divizia 7 Infanterie (7th Infantry, mainly a green unit with fighting experience in spring/summer of 1944)

These two units received the main attack and fought north-west of Jassy, in Jassy and in the Eastern part of the Moldavian main city. As Romanian divisions rarely had own tanks in support, a StuG brigade was positioned in their immediate vicinity to provide mobile armored support.

Image

In the reserve on the direction of the attack were deployed:

Divizia 3 Infanterie a veterans infantry division which was in reserve after was very active in Spring and Summer battles from Moldova such as Targu Frumos battles. It bore the weight of the main tactical offensives in Moldova in 1944 and was temporarily retired from first line for rest and replaced with 5th Motorized Cavalry. It was a the division which was commanded by Marshal Ion Antonescu in Interwar and after Odessa was kept in the country and didn't saw action after 1942 on Eastern Front which means it conserved most of its assets avoiding the disaster of Stalingrad. It was considered very motivated and loyal to the chief of state.

Comandamentul 102 Munte (102nd Mountain Command which was a veteran mountain brigade formed from new contingents of 1943 and veteran mountain rangers which were withdrawn from Crimeea in 1944. Since it's size was roughly 1/3 of a Division it may be used as separate battle groups. Its task was to defend pockets of resistance and small fortified resistance points in the reserve defensive position south of Jassy at the northern slopes of the

The other Army Corp which received the main blow of Soviet offensive was VI Corps which was formed of the following units:

Divizia 5 Infanterie (5th Infantry) mainly a green unit rebuilt after Stalingrad using soldiers from security units deployed in Transnistria and from frontier guards and saw action in 1943 and 1944.

German 76th Infantry, nothing too special here.

Image

in their reserve was Comandamentul 102 Munte]101th Mountain Command and 352 StuG brigade.

Both 5th and 7th aren't special so maybe generic infantry can be used in campaign. 13th also put up a strong counter attack supported by tanks on second day of the offensive, also very resembling with 3rd as a unit but its chief feature would be an heavy MGs battalion and more defenses as it was deployed along the Mare ridge south of Jassy-Targu Frumos.

In the reserve of these two corps were 2 divisions which counter-attacked in 20 August the Soviet spearhead:

Divizia 1 Blindata the main armored force in Northern Moldova made of veterans of Eastern Front and beefed up with some elements of 20th Panzer Division which was nearby for rest and refit.

Divizia 18 Munte was a mountain rangers divisions converted from amalgamation of frontier guards, mountain rangers veterans and infantrymen of 18th Infantry. Counterattacked in 20th August supported by some German armor.

Here is a standard battalion of Romanian infantry. There were differences between units based on their itinerary during the war, for example units which fought in Crimeea and Kuban had a bigger number of German equipment provided on spot.

Other interesting division in the area would be:

Royal Guards Division (Divizia de Garda) which was only fixed by Soviet attack and after lost some forward positions in 20th August which were recovered the next day was involved in delay actions while kept bridgeheads over Siret river for units retreating from Jassy area.

Divizia 11 Infanterie(11th Infantry) which was made of veterans and distinguished in the battles of Kuban, Crimeea and Moldova. It was considered competent enough to operate along with Mountaineers, Cavalry or Armored formations on Eastern front and its commander received an RK following spring-summer German offensive from Moldova. During Soviet offensive operated in the right flank of 5th Cavalry withing a German army corps and after the breach of the front retreated in order toward Wallachia.

Obviously 18th Mountain and 1st Armored I already covered in my previous posts were active in the same area as units listed above and counter-attacked in 20th August.

LE: 20 Panzerdivision which was tested in last beta was deployed in Jassy area for rest and refit. Its battle ready battlegroups were scattered among infantry division for support but the division didn't acted under an unified command being unable to fight as a full division due to losses sustained during Bagration.

It received some equipment while in Moldova such as French armored cars PSW 204 (f), Sd.Kfz. 234 and some new tanks

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby evilbob » Tue 23 Apr 2019 18:55

For the Germans a good unit would be 23rd panzer division fought in the south until after the start of Bagration and then after the disaster was realized moved from the south to Center to help blunt the soviet offensive.

This unit used a lot of captured soviet equipment including the T43 I think it is if I remember right also had some SU-85/SU-100 at one point as they basically formed an ad hoc beute panzer battalion in addition to their Pz IVs and Panthers.

They also had either SIG-33 or brumbar heavy support tanks directly attached which was an oddity for a panzer division. Don't have my division history books with me for the division but was another interesting note on the 23rd panzer.

Lend lease equipment soviet tank units would also be an option as during this period they are started seeing more extensive use.

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby steppewolf » Wed 24 Apr 2019 08:36

Thanks for input, I did know about Beute T-34 in Jassy area from 20 and 23 Panzer but I didn't knew about the SUs. I also found pictures of those tanks in Romania.

However, 23rd Panzer was moved up north at the time of Jassy Khisinev offensive(20th August 1944) and was moved back south after the collapse of the frontline.

Here is a list of German armored formations(far for complete) which I made while making my research about Romanian Royal Army.

About land-lease equipment, at least one mechanized Soviet corp was equipped with Shermans. Or are you talking about Beute Shermans?

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby evilbob » Wed 24 Apr 2019 17:34

The big issue from what I have read on the operations by the Romanian border that the end result of was the destruction of basically 2 more German armies when the Romanian surrendered is that one of the big issues for the Axis was a lack of heavy tanks/heavy anti tank capabilities. As the soviets deployed several units of heavy armor in a breakthrough role and the defenders basically couldn't tackle the Heavy SU and IS series tanks that were facing them.

As to the Romanians I agree there is some interesting options- the home built tank destroyers, and the reista AT Gun- better than a PAK 40 in penetration capability.

Probably alot of various armored cars as well as captured soviet equipment in spades, as they had a lack of equipment so often used captured soviet stuff from AT guns to Armored cars...at least up until they surrendered then the Soviet forced them to turn over all former soviet equipment.

Romanians also had several of the standard German tanks available Stug IIIg, Pz III, pz IVG....as well as half track/mechanized infantry and some german armored cars.

Would make a good force for sure but weak again the IS2 spam...as your best AT will air/artillery and reista 75mm AT gun which is better than a pak 40 by like 10mm or so in penetration but still not awesome enough to tackle IS2's head on....or I guess you could go panzerschrek and panzerfaust armed infantry but you need to close to the IS2 for that.

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby steppewolf » Thu 25 Apr 2019 09:20

The lack of heavy armored formations and enough motorized transports was everybody's issue on Eastern Front, including Soviets. I am cautious about Soviet success without the thousands trucks and other lend lease equipment shipped from US.

I think you look at Bagration out of context. As long as 5-6 armored German divisions were in Moldova, the Soviets were thrown back but weren't enough for all front so many were shifted north. Soviets simply did what they did before, trying to break the front to unleash their mechanized corps deep behind enemy lines. They tried in spring and early summer to do the same as in Bagration operation in Moldova but weren't successful.

Also German staff made a lot of mistakes. Romanian HQ did not considered feasible the German plan of defense of Moldova and Bessarabia and proposed from spring 1944 a retreat on the fortified line between Carpathians and Danube which was a very generous from Antonescu who as opposed with Hitler was a genuine military officer with a lot of knowledge and experience but Germans refused. This was the plan of Romanian HQ once the frontline was broken, on 21st August, as many as possible to escape to Carpathians-FNB-Danube line.

Another mistake of German command was to deploy some of the best units around Chisinau. This area was surrounded towards north and east by what is called Cornesti Massif, an hilly area (100 - 200 m elevation) covered by woods and without roads. This terrain was too difficult for mechanized operations yet Germans deployed there the most experienced units of 6th army although it was easily defendable.

Also their reaction was pretty slow. on 21st and 22nd August some German 6th Army units were doing sports competitions between units being sure that the attacks from Jassy area and Tiraspol bridgehead are mere local attack and not a serious offensive. They woke up late 22nd and started the retreat realizing how serious the situation was. In fact German military historians documented from long time the deplorable decisions of Friessner (commander of Army Group South Ukraine) or Fretter-Pico (commander of 6th Army).

As for Romania in game, it can bring more than you listed already, e.g. IAR-80 fighter/fighter bomber, JRS-79 medium bombers, interesting infantry options and better divisions than Hungary. Romanian 1st Armored was better equipped than Hungarian Cavalry Division which will be added in the game and all Romanian ones I propose will be better than the Hungarian Security division and its normal, at the time of the game Hungary wasn't involved actively on the front. Sure Hungarian army had its highlights but I don't see how its divisions would be better at the time of Bagration (they received after this operation some better and newer stuff from Germans e.g. Panthers)

Their medium tanks,the Turan was never, in its service life, comparable in quality to other medium tanks fielded by European militaries. While the tank was comfortable and enjoyed a five-men crew and good mobility, it was unreliable, under-armored and under-armed (low velocity 75 mm gun), both as the Turan I and Turan II.

Zriny SPG was more successful and may be interesting but it would be about the same level as StuH and also Nimrod, a very good AA SPG. So yes, some nice flavor but not exactly strong.

I think people are overly worried about IS-2 spam and heavy SPGs and are stuck in the experience of last beta being scared of a "weak" Axis division. I have news for you :) even weaker divisions will show up and from a game that expects to be as realistic as possible for a computer game it's normal since the Axis was weaker.

Eugen pointed that there are 3 category of division:

Next to the division’s name, you will see the emblem or coat of arms, the type, the nickname or official title if it has one, as well as the Division Rating. The rating ranges from A to C and gives an indication of the relative power of a division. Essentially, A’s are top tier multiplayer divisions, while B’s and C’s might be a bit trickier and better suited for other modes.


Mind, we didn't see a C type division yet :)

ISs are very powerful but so far only big games saw them very effective, in what is 1v1, 2v2 the Soviet division is not an issue for 20 Panzer and we will see balancing.

I think all the Romanian divisions I highlighted above (5th Cav, 18 Mtn, 1 Arm 3 Inf) supported by the StuGBG where the case (as it was in real life) will be very respectable in term of fire power and even better than what the Germans can field in Bagration (e.g. Romanian 1st Armored was imo better equipped than 20 Panzer).

evilbob wrote:As to the Romanians I agree there is some interesting options- the home built tank destroyers, and the reista AT Gun- better than a PAK 40 in penetration capability.


Another important trait of Resita 75 mm gun would be this:

The split trial carriage gave an increase in the firing arc and was extremely stable, allowing three rounds to be fired in six seconds before requiring adjustment or a different aiming. A firing rate of up to 20 rounds / minute could be achieved compared with 15 rounds/minute from the Soviet gun


It is known that in a battle in Hungary this gun eliminated 3 Pz. IV in quick succession, less than a minute therefore its superior rate of fire and a hidden stat of 3 quick shots could be also very helpful.

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby evilbob » Thu 25 Apr 2019 19:05

IMO rounds per minute is a deceptive characteristic.....as it would depend a lot on crew proficiency, battle conditions, range and so forth.

Having seen videos of some of the guns being fired in modern times on youtube it would be tough to successfully acquire a target, fire, reload and fire at anything like the RoF manuals quote.

I think RoF from manuals are in perfect range conditions and not necessarily well aimed... which are not near the same as actual battlefield conditions most of the time. The recoil on most AT guns of this period would require the gunner to re-acquire the target after most shots...as well I doubt they can sit eye glued to optics when fired as the recoil would about take him out on many of these weapon systems.

Not a period weapons expert by any means but have done a bit of research on my own, and aside from HE area saturation I doubt those RoF are truly accurate. Also the APCR rounds were exceedingly rare for the Germans by this point in the war, I do know they still had some but not lots as some veterans talk about have a couple special rounds for the heavy soviet vehicles....when you only have a couple rounds I bet you take extra time to make sure they hit is another side effect.

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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby Erich Honecker » Sat 4 May 2019 07:43

More divisions are always good, so would be really nice to have romanians in SD 2
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steppewolf
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Re: Possible DLC for Steel Division 2 with Romanian Armed Forces of WW2

Postby steppewolf » Mon 3 Jun 2019 09:54

Thank you for links, I know the spring-early summer battles from Romanian front but I picked Jassy-Khisinev offensive for more reasons like more Romanian units available (the best ones ) and basically re-enactment of operation Uranus with 6th German army being encircled.

I have Glantz's book, very good piece but it lacks any Romanian source and the number of Romanian units which participated to these battles was considerable.

About Jassy-Khisinev I recommend this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Iasi-Kishinev-Op ... 1911512439

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