Frontline issues

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Nathan des Lessings
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Frontline issues

Postby Nathan des Lessings » Sun 17 Mar 2019 20:05

In the last video I saw, the old Frontline system from SD 44 was still in use. I hoped that here something new would be here, because with that system you could see through the enemy lines without even spotting them. When there was a huge gap in the Front, in Wargame red dragon you would have to be brave an test it, but here you simply see it...
I think that is unrealstic and takes the fun out of the game. Instead, for example, you should only see who controls, or is beyond the checkpoints.
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

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praslovan
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby praslovan » Sun 17 Mar 2019 20:54

Nathan des Lessings wrote:In the last video I saw, the old Frontline system from SD 44 was still in use. I hoped that here something new would be here, because with that system you could see through the enemy lines without even spotting them. When there was a huge gap in the Front, in Wargame red dragon you would have to be brave an test it, but here you simply see it...
I think that is unrealstic and takes the fun out of the game. Instead, for example, you should only see who controls, or is beyond the checkpoints.

You really have to open a topic for outdated things that were allready discused back and forth?

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Nathan des Lessings
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby Nathan des Lessings » Sun 17 Mar 2019 21:05

praslovan wrote:You really have to open a topic for outdated things that were allready discused back and forth?

yep, simply because it is still an issue and therefor should be treated. And as a reminder.
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby BurdenedWarrior » Tue 19 Mar 2019 05:27

Meta in competitive 1v1 SD 44 is to bare bones your front line and make a concentrated push in one location on the front.

This is important because it only takes one unit in the front to hold the line forwards. In order to test the line you need combined arms and often people react to your concentrated push rather than pushing where you are weak.

My point is that that there should never be large voids where the front line expands rapidly if your playing well. The system both rewards aggression and screening.

I'm personally a super fan of the system and hope it continues in sd2 and future.

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praslovan
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby praslovan » Wed 20 Mar 2019 11:59

BurdenedWarrior wrote:Meta in competitive 1v1 SD 44 is to bare bones your front line and make a concentrated push in one location on the front.

This is important because it only takes one unit in the front to hold the line forwards. In order to test the line you need combined arms and often people react to your concentrated push rather than pushing where you are weak.

My point is that that there should never be large voids where the front line expands rapidly if your playing well. The system both rewards aggression and screening.

I'm personally a super fan of the system and hope it continues in sd2 and future.

I would Agree with you. As a wargame player myself I do not understand wargame overzelaus fans that say the gamemode is bad. I agree sometimes frontline might penetrate your territory too aggressively, however the only place to put blame for that is the player itself. Spread out your units. It is kinda like claiming moon... when US came there there was noone else that could dispute their claim (apart from the moon nazis hidden in the bunker :lol: ) so it is not that hard to understand why they can say it was theirs... all of it even though they might have physically touched only like what? 100 square meters?

Those extreme penetrations of the frontline usually hapen because not only you left a hole in your front line but also because you let the enemy get behind your frontline in one way or another. I understand that it is hard for some people to come to terms with that since you started with half of your map for yourself... however, it is not the enemy fault that you haven't put some 5-10pt unit with a gun somewhere in a bush down the line.

I find that people are simply affraid of this physical fog of war... they see that line relentlessly moving past them and behind their nonexistent line and they panick... they don't analize the situation, see that most of the enemy money is right where they can see it and that that flank possibly consists of some Ostfront unit in a kubel only. They see a battalion of tigers and king tigers comming to roll over their grandma and drink all their chocolate milk. And so they panic.
Honestly that is why I like the line... it intentionally or unintentionally model the situation where lack of intelligence and recon leads into widespread panic on the battlefield.
Remember, line movement works the other way around as well... sometimes the only thing that is stopping the enemy are two platoons of cheap infantry spread in the forest, yet since the line doesn't move and since enemy invested into their shiny Tiger however decided to pull full on ancient Rome and not bring any recon, they suddenly cower because the line doesn't move and they don't know why.

"But muh flanks" ... well, were they really happening in WW2 on the scale that we play our battles on? A lot of movement was either on foot or in slow vehicles so you had a general idea where the enemy is, however you simply couldn't do anything about it since you didn't have sufficient force in the area. Sounds familliar? This is not wargame with APCs that can drive 130km/h relatively quietly.

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[EUG]MadMat
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby [EUG]MadMat » Thu 21 Mar 2019 21:31

In SD2, the whole of the RECON category do not affect the frontline: Puma, T-70, Greyhound, Valentine, recon Panzer IV, T-34/76 or even Panther, ... are as many units you can sneak ahead in enemy territory without the frontline to move a bit.

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Re: Frontline issues

Postby praslovan » Thu 21 Mar 2019 22:19

[EUG]MadMat wrote:In SD2, the whole of the RECON category do not affect the frontline: Puma, T-70, Greyhound, Valentine, recon Panzer IV, T-34/76 or even Panther, ... are as many units you can sneak ahead in enemy territory without the frontline to move a bit.

Yup kinda like in SD44, however I think that many times when people opose the front-line mechanic is because they can't sneak a whole tank platoon or two across the flanks without people noticing because they didn't put any recon around.

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Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Mon 25 Mar 2019 00:38

I would suggest that Eugen fix the issue of the frontline showing things the player does not want by allowing the players to TURN OFF or on each individual units effect on the front line. you could hide a build up, defence or even a strike by simply turning off your assault forces "line effect". You could of course turn it back on when you wanted the points. If your units are spotted of course the game is up and the line effect would be enforced.

Another way to do things would be to change the line based on recon. If you have a unit in an area then it is assumed you have info and the line will change or show you why points are being lost or gained in that area. Without a unit in the area then perhaps ???? or diagonal lines should show that no info is available in that area.

I actually think the frontline mechanic is great. Because in ww2 usually the whole front line had at least somebody covering it who could tell command of any kind of advance. They may not know the strength but they also may be able to ascertain the strength. What they will know is that the enemy is out there. It was rare in ww2 that the enemy would not know when the enemy was not present in front of them or even when they were coming. You just won't know what force they are coming in.... well sometimes.

The problem I guess is that the enemy can tell that there are no enemy units in front of them once they vanquish your lone unit holding that front. On the flip side of that. You only need a little defence in depth to stop that perception. Only a single unit is needed to stop the line unless the enemy is overwhelming. If the enemy is overwhelming it is assumed they just know that they are encountering no resistance.

So I guess the trade off is needed or not. The mechanic works well imho. It is assumed that the enemy knows that a sector has units and assumes the enemy is there or knows where a sector is quiet and... who knows. It needs work to make sense and allow surprise.

Actually the reverse in most computer games is very annoying. That is to say the lack of intel in MOST circumstances. Enabling people to hide absolutely huge forces that realistically unless they are coming through the ardennes with perfect air cover, you would know about.
It's highly unrealistic to NOT know about ww2 frontline incursions or build ups. Just look at the huge efforts generals went to to cover their movements with dummies and fake tank build ups. This is because the enemy DOES have intel in most cases from more sources than just their standard organic recon.
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Re: Frontline issues

Postby matrin » Tue 26 Mar 2019 20:50

praslovan wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:In SD2, the whole of the RECON category do not affect the frontline: Puma, T-70, Greyhound, Valentine, recon Panzer IV, T-34/76 or even Panther, ... are as many units you can sneak ahead in enemy territory without the frontline to move a bit.

Yup kinda like in SD44, however I think that many times when people opose the front-line mechanic is because they can't sneak a whole tank platoon or two across the flanks without people noticing because they didn't put any recon around.

Tank platoons are almost never sneaky, whether they can be seen or not.

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Re: Frontline issues

Postby praslovan » Tue 26 Mar 2019 22:29

matrin wrote:
praslovan wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:In SD2, the whole of the RECON category do not affect the frontline: Puma, T-70, Greyhound, Valentine, recon Panzer IV, T-34/76 or even Panther, ... are as many units you can sneak ahead in enemy territory without the frontline to move a bit.

Yup kinda like in SD44, however I think that many times when people opose the front-line mechanic is because they can't sneak a whole tank platoon or two across the flanks without people noticing because they didn't put any recon around.

Tank platoons are almost never sneaky, whether they can be seen or not.

That is the point I'm triyng to make.

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