Frontline issues

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Wed 27 Mar 2019 10:35

matrin wrote:
praslovan wrote:
[EUG]MadMat wrote:In SD2, the whole of the RECON category do not affect the frontline: Puma, T-70, Greyhound, Valentine, recon Panzer IV, T-34/76 or even Panther, ... are as many units you can sneak ahead in enemy territory without the frontline to move a bit.

Yup kinda like in SD44, however I think that many times when people opose the front-line mechanic is because they can't sneak a whole tank platoon or two across the flanks without people noticing because they didn't put any recon around.

Tank platoons are almost never sneaky, whether they can be seen or not.


Correct. Tanks and especially tank offensives can usually be heard many miles away. Especially as they get closer.
Image

User avatar
JoonasTo
Master Sergeant
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu 17 Nov 2016 21:30
Location: Somewhere in the Finnish woodlands
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby JoonasTo » Sat 30 Mar 2019 20:15

For me, personally, the problem is the "all-knowing" attitude of the frontline, in where it is not unique to the player's perspective. What I mean by that is the frontline takes both mine and the opponent's units into consideration, regardless, if my units know they are there or not.

It took me a long time and many different games to finally realise this was what bugged me about the system. I knew I didn't like it and it felt forced but I couldn't properly explain why. On paper it sounds fine and nothing is wrong but in game it always turned me off. Incidentally it was today while playing Armored Brigade I realised why it bugged me so much. That game has a very simple UI element for: "Your units are being shot at from this area", which is simply a circle on a map, the size of which depends on your intel of the area(unit proximity, type and condition, so non-stressed recon unit nearby leads to a very small circle, a tank fully buttoned up under fire to a very large one.) This is extremely effective and the uncertainty of it lead me to realise that this is exactly what the frontline in SD tries to represent but fails. Imprecise and uncertain information of: "there is something over there" or "we think there is nothing over there."

What I would like is a frontline I can see, based on what my units think is mine and a different frontline that the opposing player sees, again based on what their units think is theirs. These could overlap or not touch at all without the players knowing about it, leading to real no-mans-land and contested territory situations. SD2 bringing back capture points makes this a possibility.

The information for drawing the line should/would/could come from a multitude of sources, seeing an enemy(someone charging over a field), hearing an enemy(tank driving through town), being fired at by an enemy(hidden ambush from the woods), etc. Implementation of this requires a secondary signature check to a unit, that is lower than the visual detection signature check and not limited by field of view. So units could still hear a tank move, even if they couldn't see it but they couldn't hear a stationary AT-gun, unless the crew decided to move it.

Of course you could attach a whole bunch of mechanics to this so that if a unit were to be ambushed from what they thought was safe territory, that could cause a hit to morale(like say airborne troops causing confusion), or the sudden information(being shot at is very sudden!) could cause the unit to consider their area now no-mans-land, pulling back the frontline(which could remove the morale bonus from feeling safe and secure among comrades, similar to current encircled penalty.) Or none of this at all ofc, should it be deemed too complicated. Similarly the capture points could be based on your information as well. You would know which are yours but not necessarily which are the enemy's. Or simply continue to work as they do now and give some free intel, it's pretty minor in scale compared to current frontline.

Why is this still relevant? Because I would pay for a DLC with a refreshed frontline mechanic in it.
The psychotic Finnish wood-elf

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Sun 31 Mar 2019 11:03

Interesting take joonas.

I would also like the frontline to be solely based on what objectives I capture and where my units or what intel they had.
The problem for Eugen is that the frontline system is the basis for awarding points.
I actually don't think it's a big deal. One unit can open huge gaps in the frontline leading you to believe that their is a massive penetration happening iiirc from SD44. You cannot tell how many got through you just know they did. Lets face it. You are not going to penetrate a frontline without the enemy knowing anyways. Support troops in the rear areas would say something not to mention the troops you had in the area just not responding to your radio calls anymore. Add to that aerial recon etc.

What this game does not do well is stop communications when leaders with radios go down. It also does not stop you as the general from having perfect information at all times from your god like view in the sky. You play every NCO in this game as in most wargames. Not very realistic on that level at all. YOU know exactly and with finite detail what the troops across the other side of the map are doing. You know where to bring re-enforcements on with that perfect information. You don't start with your whole division moving properly in order of march. Steel Division is an RTS that looks and feels like a wargame. It's 90% more realistic than most even though it has the RTS mechanics listed above in the mix to make it play in a reasonable time and keep the player engaged. The frontline system is better than wargame red dragon with it's modern weapons and fluid modern frontline. ww2 is horse drawn wagon supply time with slow moving rear areas. Penetrations are not too deep and when they are they outstrip supply. THis game simulates that fact fairly well the way the frontline system works. Troops spoook easy and surrender when cutoff. This is the genius of the frontline system. It's better than say COH. Even better than combat mission where their is no mechanic I know of that simulates being cutoff. You just have to be near yuour squad leader. Whats more this can be a 10 v 10 game. Tell me any other game of this type that does that. Wargame or RTS?


I think what bothered me about armored brigade was that it was turn based. I prefer WEGO or it makes it hard for me to believe when I have to suspend my disbelief by thinking. Ok all units stop!!! While this one unit moves first. This makes plenty of unrealistic moves possible. You never get units meeting each other was they pass each other with a turn based system for instance. The whole front line always waits for that one unit to do what it wants. Frozen in time.
Image

User avatar
Arctander2
Corporal
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2012 19:40
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Arctander2 » Sun 7 Apr 2019 18:07

I'm with the OP. I really wish they didn't use the front line like they did. Too easy to catch any efforts to sneak or flank.

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Mon 8 Apr 2019 01:13

I am seriously mystified as to why people think that in ww2 squads snuck through enemy lines and somehow became special forces commandos harassing the rear areas on their own. Only really happened in rare cases or by accident. I am trying to say that sneaking through enemy lines without a long and obvious command and communication as well as logistic and rear echelon troop line that is really obvious would not have happened except in rare circumstances.

I see what people are saying, I just don't think it's a big deal. I would prefer though if the front line simply changed based on what your own troops could see or even change colours based on what you cannot see and historical information. But it is much simpler to give an approximate based on troop strength on both sides of the fence. Now that objectives are the win condition perhaps their will be a non frontline option. If their is there better be a whole logistics and rear echelon deployment mechanic. Because it would not be long behind a front line before your advance is reported by supply or logistic or even reserve troops moving about in the rear.

Perhaps you should just assume their is some sort of high aircraft recon at all times.

The only sneak attacks on a ww2 front line would be via seeing the enemy strength for the first time. Not NOT knowing they had broken your line and were advancing.
Image

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Mon 8 Apr 2019 02:44

SUGGESTION: Make it so when you put units in Z (hold fire) mode it also hides them from the front line system. Meaning ambushes are possible and so are surprise advances.

So you press Z (or perhaps a new key to toggle front line off and on for the given unit) and the frontline washes over the hidden unit. You are effectively hidden from the enemy at the expense of giving away any control points the front line may wash over.

Obviously if an enemy unit spots you visually or hears you in the case of tanks the front line restores itself and the game is up. your men are no longer strategically hidden.
Image

User avatar
Arctander2
Corporal
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2012 19:40
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Arctander2 » Tue 9 Apr 2019 19:08

Destraex wrote:I am seriously mystified as to why people think that in ww2 squads snuck through enemy lines and somehow became special forces commandos harassing the rear areas on their own.


I'm not sure why you think "people" are thinking that way, but I simply would prefer if the front line mechanic weren't such an obvious tip to when a flank is being exploited. We already have the wealth of cap points to monitor where the front line is; continuing the SD44 line only further limits the opportunity for successful flanking attacks.

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Wed 10 Apr 2019 14:53

I think that people think that because they expect full battlegroups to somehow penetrate enemy lines like stealthed special forces.
Image

User avatar
praslovan
Major-General
Posts: 3939
Joined: Tue 20 Sep 2011 21:56
Location: Slav inhabited Alps
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby praslovan » Wed 10 Apr 2019 19:42

Arctander2 wrote:
Destraex wrote:I am seriously mystified as to why people think that in ww2 squads snuck through enemy lines and somehow became special forces commandos harassing the rear areas on their own.


I'm not sure why you think "people" are thinking that way, but I simply would prefer if the front line mechanic weren't such an obvious tip to when a flank is being exploited. We already have the wealth of cap points to monitor where the front line is; continuing the SD44 line only further limits the opportunity for successful flanking attacks.

There is a chance that if a line in sand made your flanking maneuer fail that maneuer wasn't a good idea in the first place.

I have a feeling that people simply find a scapegoat for their failed flanks (in this case)... the most convenient at this point is the frontline, if they take that away, it will be something else.

On the other hand if people would be against the ammount of arty and plane spam that can be done at this point... life would be better for everyone playing SD2.

User avatar
Destraex
Warrant Officer
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri 10 Feb 2012 02:32
Contact:

Re: Frontline issues

Postby Destraex » Thu 11 Apr 2019 01:20

I would add that the frontline system does not show perfectly the strength of the enemy or what they are doing. Sometimes it's just one small infantry unit that has no opposing forces in front of it that forces the frontline deep into enemy territory. That could be misleading as well. One could use that as an advantage. Their is a reason recon is so important in this game.
Image

Return to “Steel Division 2”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests